Still struggling with the milk steaming

C-man · March 2013

I am thinking maybe their is too much water in my steam?

When I hold my hand under it (at a small distance) it quickly gets soaking wet

I have a S24 with boiler set around 1.1bar I am looking for mechanical things I can do, I changed the tip to the 2 small hole as recommended by coffee parts guy, changed the 0 ring on the tip and keep everything clean. Maybe I need to descale or clean the steam arm?

I can stretch the milk about 30% and swirl it around and it looks really good, but goes flat in a few minutes

I have tried every possible way, I use the same milk the Lacehin uses and the right jug he uses and his latte's are fantastic.

So it is either my machine or my way of doing it. I did get it right once in a hundred tries though.

askthecoffeeguy · March 2013

I've got a rancilio Epoca at home which is just a jumped up S24 - and I've got a synesso five hole tip on mine and it makes killer milk ! As far as I know the internals are identical to the S24 except for some added insulation around the boiler How clean is you steam wand ? Have you plunged it with a small wire brush / pipe cleaner thingy? Cheers Pat

Lacehim · March 2013

C-man, that machine does not need descaling! ::) Repeat after me... "I do not need to descale my machine!" :laugh: If your going to use the detergent to practice, put a jug of water in your fridge. Your machine does steam fast, but as mentioned in the other thread (not sure why we need a new one) you need to put bubbles into the milk, skim the surface, get that sorta slupping noise going until around 40deg, then plunge the wand in to create the microfoam. Some folk create a whirlpool effect, but I just roll it off the bottom which has the same effect in my opinion. By the sounds of it, what you are getting is a flat white type of foam, very thin on top. You need to put more bubbles into the milk for sure. FYI fill the jug to just above the bottom of the start of the spout (about half way up the jug), and when you've got good latte/cap foam you should have a just that's nearly full, about 1cm from the top ish. I'll try to pop around tomorrow to help when I'm kiddie free. Will you be home? Either that or bung it in the car and bring it around today! lol I know it's frustrating, but it's not a sunbeam, it's faster, and has more holes so you need to reprogram yourself on how you tackle it. It can be done I promise!!!! Good luck.

shape_shifter · March 2013

on 1363742722:

By the sounds of it, what you are getting is a flat white type of foam, very thin on top. You need to put more bubbles into the milk for sure. FYI fill the jug to just above the bottom of the start of the spout (about half way up the jug), and when you've got good latte/cap foam you should have a just that's nearly full, about 1cm from the top ish.

Lacehim I thought that was called froth and was forbidden

Seriously that is how I do my milk and I get a large amount of foam on top that stays that way and I get it out of the cup with a spoon at the end of my coffee, I'm going to video and photograph it shortly and I'll put it up

FreshCoffee2 · March 2013

Suggest leave the machine and buying fancy steam tips alone. It will be technique (yours) related, and it happens to everyone that goes to a new machine. You will learn it and get used to it over time. Some machines are supplied with steam tips where the holes are too large or too many. Its because the Italian manufacturers have no concept of milk steaming....they drink predominantly black coffee....so they often fit steam tips designed for their larger cafe sized machines, on to small machines like yours. What happens is these tips let out too much volume of steam too quickly for the capacity of your much smaller boiler. Some people get round this by buying aftermarket tips. You can do the same by peening over the steam holes of the original nozzle to make the holes smaller (effectively partially blocking them). That costs nothing and has the same effect as giving spare parts traders money for them to supply you with a "magic' steam tip. That said......you already did the steam tip thing, so its just technqiue. Practice, and enjoy. You could also get together with another forum member in your area and get some free tips OR....you could cut to the chase and pay for a lesson. Hope that helps. PS repeat after me a hundred times......"I will keep descaler away from my machine"..... Just feed it properly conditioned water and enjoy.

C-man · March 2013

being a robot sort of guy, I look for some psychical problem that I can fix. I refuse to believe I am that much of a Mug that I can't steam milk, actually it does stretch to almost the top with the dose suggested just at the bottom of the spout, looks like the job is done until I start pouring nice thick microfoam then notice it is getting watery further down in the jug, still looks OK in the cup, then goes to complete dishwater 2 min. later. I bet anything the steam arm needs cleaning inside! because the rest of the machine needed back-flushing within an inch of it's life to get the rancid taste out of the shots! how do I clean inside the steam arm? The thing is I can drink what I make and it is better than most, but I would like to make that really nice white coffee like in KK's video where it is thick and consistent when he put the spoon through it and fused to the coffee for my beautiful sweet wife who deserves it. So really I am looking not to learn to steam, but to learn to steam perfectly. I did it once but can not repeat it not matter how hard I keep trying, MICHEAL I NEED YOU HELP, if you can stop by I will stop whatever I am doing and watch.

shape_shifter · March 2013

on 1363750898:

I refuse to believe I am that much of a Mug that I can't steam milk, actually it does stretch to almost the top with the dose suggested just at the bottom of the spout, looks like the job is done until I start pouring nice thick microfoam then notice it is getting watery further down in the jug, still looks OK in the cup, then goes to complete dishwater 2 min. later.

C-man what you have described here is exactly what happens when I steam milk at my parents. What is the difference after all my milk is perfect, I think, every time when I do it at home, the difference is the milk. They refuse to buy anything but Dairy Farmers and I refuse to ever buy it, it always without fail splits, I get the foam on top, I think it looks ok but when I pour it I get nothing but what looks like cloudy water with foam on top. It then proceeds to end up looking like, as you say, dishwater. I'm just setting up my camera, can't find the charger for my small camera so using my laptop one, so it's taking a little while.

LaSanMarcoMelb · March 2013

It still sounds like the milk to me too. The exact same thing happened to me yesterday while I was doing training with some new cafe owners in our training room, on the machine we always use. It's also happening at home with a different brand. As said earlier, this has been the worst stretch of bad milk I've ever seen (about 5 weeks) Buy 3 different brands and compare. Even badly textured milk won't dissipate like that.

LaSanMarcoMelb · March 2013

:tearhair:

FreshCoffee2 · March 2013

on 1363750898:

...how do I clean inside the steam arm?....

Dont waste your time as I am aftaid that is most unlikely to help.

on 1363755341:

....Buy 3 different brands and compare. ....

Eggzackary. Note also sometimes milk can be left out a while after delivery, and before being put away ie refrigerated. So even the milk you learn to trust can sometimes fail you depending on how it has been handled especially if it sufferd a period without refrigeration, and no one knows that when they buy a bottle.

C-man · March 2013

I will try a few different types of milk to see if that helps any might even take a video of my milk to show I am using the exact same Cooloola pasterized only milk that Lacehim uses Like I said his milk is really, really nice, from his machine anyway

Lacehim · March 2013

on 1363757001:

Note also sometimes milk can be left out a while after delivery, and before being put away ie refrigerated. So even the milk you learn to trust can sometimes fail you depending on how it has been handled especially if it sufferd a period without refrigeration, and no one knows that when they buy a bottle.

I always laugh at places that food industry proudly having their HACCP compliance plastered everywhere, yet you can put some icecream in your shopping basket and you wait at the checkouts, and then load your car, and drive home. Does the icecream magically stay at -18degC.... ummm no. So the HACCP process fails right there! I'll bring some milk tomorrow am C-man, and we will give it another go.

I use the cooloolah milk and haven't had any issues, but maybe you just had a bad bottle as FC said. It is one of the best brands to buy though, it's local so doesn't have to travel far, and has a much longer date life for the same reason!

shape_shifter · March 2013

C-man here is my video

excuse the towels on the floor, leaking dishwasher, oh and my arm for people that don't know, surgery scar from broken radial bones, my other arm that you never see enough of has 3 of them around my wrist.

C-man · March 2013

on 1363759667:

C-man here is my video excuse the towels on the floor, leaking dishwasher, oh and my arm for people that don't know, surgery scar from broken radial bones, my other arm that you never see enough of has 3 of them around my wrist.

Thanks SS, it looks like you start low and just work your way up and get some air later rather than sooner different to what everyone else is saying, but it works for your machine, also having the jug more steady resting on the tray where I am holding mine in the air may make some difference. It looked a little thin when you first poured it but seemed to work well in the cup all the way to the bottom of the cup, My wife watched and approved that is just what she wants your machine takes twice as long to steam as mine even with the smaller 2 hole tip. mine actually looks similar in the jug, but comes unstuck in the cup and duds out. WHAT MILK ARE YOU USING? you know the thick stuff at the bottom, once I had a full jug like that but never again.

shape_shifter · March 2013

I used to hold the jug but not being able to actually hold even a jug of milk stopped that and I just 'had' to have coffee, so it came from a necessity rather than a technique

Thin - actually now thinking about it, the video is how I do milk for me, when I do milk for my OH, I just put the tip in where I start in the video and it stays there until it's hot enough. It is slightly thicker, more air throughout rather than majority of it being from the top half maybe. LOL your wife is the same as most of my female friends, they all agree that that is how they want their milk, I know it's not the 'done' thing but I like it. I use ONLY (no idea what I'll do if it ever stops being produced) Pauls Farmhouse Gold. I don't drink milk other than in coffee and hot/iced chocolate so for me it's worth the extra money.

C-man · March 2013

SS just back from the market with 3 types of Milk guess what? one of them is the Gold, my wife sensed it before reading your reply.

shape_shifter · March 2013

One thing not mentioned is whether you have a temperature gauge or sticker, what one person thinks is hot is different to another person. I used one for a while until I learnt the feel of the heat at the right temperature. As I read elsewhere milk doesn't handle high heat well. LOL C-man, sometimes women are more than just a pretty face!

C-man · March 2013

I do use a temp gauge and my milk looks similar to yours after stretching, but soon turns to flat dishwater in the cup! I have tried 4 different types of milk and KKs method, SS method, and what Lacehim told me as well as some tips from BF Unless Micheal shows up and proves me wrong I will completely dismantle the steam arm all the way back to the boiler and soak everything in back-flush detergent overnight. I did remove the tip and rammed up inside with some SS handrail cable that went around the bends and flushed about 10 times and collected the water that was cloudy and tasted bad, kept flushing until the water cleared up. It is steaming a little better but not good enough for the Princess.

Koffee_Kosmo · March 2013

If it was used in a holiday rental setting - then it's possible that you will have a blocked steam wand Milk can and does syphon up the steam pipe if one is not careful to cut the steam sharply to prevent it In extreme situations boilers be contaminated with milk as well KK

FreshCoffee2 · March 2013

on 1363821767:

......flushed about 10 times and collected the water that was cloudy and tasted bad, kept flushing until the water cleared up....

and

on 1363830148:

.... In extreme situations boilers be contaminated with milk as well.....

Please pull some water from the boiler (hot water spout), put some in a glass, and into a white cup. Taste, smell and report

If you are not sure, take a photo of the water and post it up.

C-man · March 2013

Lacehim came today his report is coming

Lacehim · March 2013

Report, A very rushed visit. I played a bit and check a few things. The water is clear (didn't smell off to me, C-Man better recheck that), and I steamed some milk, and detergent water. From my observations it's very much like my San Marino that I restored. I could never get the milk I wanted from that machine. It puts bubbles in to the milk ok up to 40degC, and heats the milk faster than my Achilles, but not a lot of microfoam is produced. It's left me scratching my head too. I really think that it has something to do with the final rolling of the milk. I tried my technique which is to roll it off the bottom, and to create a whirlpool and they both came out the same. I just seems to heat the milk and that's it. Max we got was 5mm of foam at the top in a latte glass.

C-man's ready to pull it apart, but I really think it's a technique thing, this machine just has a little trick to it, that we don't know yet! :laugh: It's a learning experience though, some machine make it easy, this one doesn't! I've had machines with varying boiler sizes and varying steam wands, and some are easy, some are not. I only tried C-man's 2 hole tip though, maybe a original 3 hole might be better, but we had limited time.

C-man · March 2013

Thanks Micheal for you time and effort I pulled the steam are and copper boiler arm off and they are soaking in a bucket of back-flush detergent I would also like to soak the what you call it knob mechanism too but it looks a little harder to get apart. I undid the bottom of the boiler drain and nothing came out until I poked it with some wire the water doesn't taste bad but there is some particles in the bottom of the bucket that look like off white sand. I flushed some clean water through, maybe I should just manually descale the boiler and nothing else? I could add it through the Steam are hole and let it sit overnight? Then flush just the boiler and nothing else? I still can only get the wire up the hole a little bit, feels like metal blocking my path, Must be an elbow or something? here is a pic of the drain plug--- is that white stuff scale or milk or what? I was hoping to not have to fully remove the boiler but I may have to.

Koffee_Kosmo · March 2013

It's a very very mild calcium build up So all is well A water flush may be the go One other suggestion is to adjust the water level probe lower so you have more steam space at the top of the boiler KK

C-man · March 2013

Thanks KK How do I adjust the water level?

askthecoffeeguy · March 2013

I probably won't be firing my Epoca up until Sunday coz im at the cafe all day every day till then - but when I do I'm gunna take a photo of the steam that the machine produces coz it's kick butt second to none - and I recon that the S24 should be able to do the same job coz I've owned both machines!

C-man · March 2013

Pat how did your S24 go with steaming? What tip did you use? Thanks I am still hoping for a happy ending, I am a sucker for them. I am 99% sure the problem is dirty old milk somewhere, being in a rental the machine was very much unloved. I had to back flush the holy snappin duckshit out of it just to get the shots to stop tasting bad, so surely the milk trail would be even worse! Most likely it sucked some milk back up into the boiler, I am soaking the boiler now in descale after getting permission from Lacehim haha

askthecoffeeguy · March 2013

I had the same problem with my S24 when I first bought it - removed the steam wand, soaked it, and blasted it with high pressure water Definitely changed the nib to but to what I can't remember - but I've just been having a play on my Epoca - and it's a four hole diamond shaped synesso tip on there at the moment - and I get super dry steam and heaps of pressure Just timed it: it took me ten seconds to steam 300ml of milk from cold to ready for a latte If I get the chance ill post some pics later Sounds like you're doing all the right things Cheers, Pat

derrilex · March 2013

Wow, thats quick Pat. Steaming powerhouse :thumb:

C-man · March 2013

I soaked the boiler for just 70min in descale, draining it now, so far the water looks pretty clear, can't see anything wrong with it. So it must all be in the arm and or controller, I will let them soak overnight. meanwhile I will flush heaps of clean water through the boiler. Thanks for the pics and reply pat.

C-man · March 2013

I expect to be able to steam up shaving cream after this clean.

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