Grinders Coffee

mimmo124 · October 2003

Hey all,

Anyone here heard of or used Grinders Coffee?? We have had a rep around our place and gave us a grinder and some coffee to try out. Just curious to your thoughts??

Regards
Mimmo

FreshCoffee2 · October 2003

Ciao Mimmo, Mate, you're in WA arent you? Surely you have more than one LOCAL roaster of fine, fresh coffee beans not far away with whom you can request a sample if you are not happy with your encumbent supplier. If you are happy with your supplier, why allow a rep to push the sample onto you when it represents potential destruction of hard earned goodwill, as well as just another unnecessary complication in life. Support your local roaster. You wouldn't import a loaf of bread that was baked in Italy, Vienna, Darwin, Wellington NZ or Seattle USA would you, so why coffee from a Victorian company? Apologies for not answering the question. Fresh Coffee Defender of the Faith Be Parochial, buy Local!

mimmo124 · October 2003

Thats precicely what I was thinking, how can coffee from victoria be fresh if it has to travel at least three to four days by truck to get here, not to mention time sitting and waiting to be transported. Unless they are roasting here in Perth now?? The biggest local roaster I can think of is Dimattina who seem to be sold in most cafes' in Perth. However I am yet to have a decent espresso made from that coffee. There are some Boutique cafes' that roast there own but that is only in small quantities and for their own use. Brazilliano and Sylvanna are basically the same coffee although they differ greatly in price. We use Brazilliano Bar Classico atm and it puzzels me that one minute it can make a brilliant espresso then about an hour later it tastes shocking. This is with the same process used, same doseage, same tamp, same extraction time and yet it tastes like water? I dont get it. I understand I am not the most experienced EMO out there but i believe i can pick between good and bad. As for goodwill I am not sure, as people may be impressed by an increase in the quality of the coffee produced. Thanks for your thoughts Mimmo

Dean · October 2003

Hi Mimmo, It isn't the first time that the Perth coffee market has seen the arrival of another brand from Melbourne or Sydney. It also isn't the first time that Grinders have made an attempt to move coffee into the West. It isn't bad coffee - but it isn't fresh and there is definately coffee that is equal or better in quality available locally. In recent years the emergence of smaller local roasters has eroded some of the dominance of a few of the overseas and interstate brands in Perth so you do have an increasing number of local roasters you can choose from (and Dimattina is not one of them). I'd encourage you to ask around. Perth roasters have a good understanding of the Perth palate and will probably be able to provide you with coffee that will appeal to the demographic you are trying to target. Regards DGC

over_extracted · October 2003

Hi there all ;D ,i know of a person here in sydney that uses grinders coffee and they allways have trouble with it,to me it is a shocking coffee stale,bitter,inconsistent you only have to look at the beans in the blend to see how bad it is ,one day the roast is dark and the next week its light ahhhhhhh :o ::) ::)trust me stick to one of your local roasters that way you both can work together and get the right choice.By the way iam not associated with any coffee company or work for any :P.ps you could allways look in africa its close to you and iam sure that you will find something better than grinders.see ya OE

mimmo124 · October 2003

Cheers lads, I'll pass this info onto my superiors to see what they have to say. I would like to see some changes take place, but as i dont have a stake in the running of this business I am not sure my opinions would be welcomed. I am under the impression that "If it aint broke dont fix it" mentality is holding true, this isnt necessarily a bad thing, but i believe change could bring about a whole different perspective on what is achievable in this cafe. Thanks for your help Mimmo

Labinator · January 2004

I work in a cafe which uses Grinders, i personally dont mind the taste of it, however when i came to work at this place, they had just made the change from jacobs coffee to grinders. Oh how i wish i could have got them to use another brand. All in all though, grinders isnt too bad, but it can be inconsistent.

over_extracted · January 2004

Thanks, i thought i was the only one with this view but looks like there are others out there that share the same feeling

Labinator · January 2004

Yeh, if you have a popular and busy cafe, go with a better brand. Our cafe is more of a deli, so people do order coffees, but not to the extent of a normal cafe, so i guess my boss can afford to use a substatial brand. Tobys are the best brand in my opinion

FreshCoffee2 · January 2004

Gentlemen as far as I am concerned the coffee brand which is the subject of this topic is just another competitor and there is no reaosn why there should be any love lost between us however I wonder if you are not being a little unfair in the scheme of things... Please consider that everything is relative and that there are "degrees" of evil. Jacobs is (or was a short few years ago) the largest coffee company in the world, is (or was) owned by Kraft Foods and is imported into this country (Australia). It is therefore the worst kind of "evil" as it is not a "local" product produced by a "local" company, just like any other imported product. The coffee company which is the subject of this post is based in Melbourne so in Melbourne it is good as it is local. Everywhere else in Australia it is "evil" as it is not a locally roasted product, but it is not as evil as the coffee brand imported from overseas! Changing therefore from Jacobs to Grinders is a "good" thing especially if your cafe is in Melbourne, however if it is anywhere else in Australia your cafe could / should have been a little more patriotic and parochial and changed instead to a local roaster in your area. Ergo, degrees of evil! Whilst I have said there is no love lost between any of these coffee companies and my own in the area of competition I also question this odd notion of "consistency" and may I respectfully note that all coffee roasters except for the very big ones with the latest whiz bang equipment have as much chance at "consistency" as eachother. Coffee roasting by its very nature is like cooking, you cannot roast coffee by following a set pattern as though you were cooking from a recipe. You are dealing with ingredients that vary, and roasting conditions that vary. Except with the very large companies, each separate roast is "hand" delivered out of the roasting machine and simply cannot have the degree of "consistency" we seem to hear about in these columns or when we listen to coffee "heads" having a conversation about their favourite, or their most despised coffee roasters. Most seem to use the words "consistency" or INconsisteny" as an insult directed towards whichever roaster is considered not to be the flavour of the month, where from my point of view as long as it ( the "consistency") is within reasonable tolerance it simply exemplifies the dynamic nature of the business we happen to be in. Roasters try their best to make each batch roasted as consistent (relative to other batches) as possible. This is a skill born of experience, practiced by those who can "keep their cool under pressure" however it is impossible to make every batch the same. Some might care to reflect that this is what sets a smaller roaster apart from the run of the mill national and international companies with all their computerised optical sensing equipment that ensures the look of the roast is as "consistent" as it can possibly be. Smaller roasters are also more likely to have used the highest possible grades of raw coffee to begin, but yes, the batches cannot be as "consistent" as the larger roasters. This would appear to introduce conflict into the "consistency" discussion.... A) smaller roasters / higher quality / FRESH product / more likelyhood of inconsistency between batches VS b) large roasters / lower quality / STALE product (due to economies of scale) / less likelyhood of inconsistency between batches........ Which is it to be? I therefore feel that far too much uninformed comment is made about so called "consistency" or lack of it, and that in many instances the term is used by some to unfairly slander many small coffee roasting companies that may actually be doing a relatively sterling job. If an espresso machine operator is doing his or her job as it should be being done, then he or she should easily be able to work around the beans being used to produce a relatively CONSISTENT BREW and at the same time use an ethically higher quality and fresher product. One of the greatest problems with consistency of brew is that many operators are not drinking or tasting the brew they are producing. If they know what they are producing, they can adjust their techniques accordingly to make sure it always tastes good. This is their job. If it tastes good, what does one's opinion of the so called "consistency" of a particular brand of roasted coffee matter? Is it relevant? "Consistency" is just another variable in the long list of variables that make up the dynamics of freshly roasted, delivered and brewed coffee. If we wish to "knock" a particular coffee supplier then, why not look at any of the miriad of other perhaps more legitimate reasons why we might not be happy with their "performance". It may be we do not like their rep or he never calls around. In most instances there is usually a problem in the relationship between the supplier / client that starts the client looking around for another supplier, AFTER WHICH one of the first excuses brought out of the bag when the change is imminent is that something was wrong with the product ("inconsistent")! That's human nature, not coffee beans. By the way, what constitutes a "better brand"? FC. Support your local roaster, build a relationship, its just another form of business.

over_extracted · January 2004

I agree with you FC and see your point I too would like to support my local roaster.But going back to the mentioned brand the other day i had a good look at it after a couple of weeks(this is at someones else shop i dont use this brand)and the coffee beans that were in that hopper were very poor,they actually look old as they were very dry and some of them were very light in color that when you crush them they smell like penuts

Iam not a expert in roasting but i know that if i put those beans thru my machine the coffee would be bery poor and thats something that i would not give to my customers.Then the other day i got a bag of another melbourne coffee with the promise from the rep that it was very good,THE BEST well the best went straight into my rubbish bin as i opened the bag only to be introduced to a bag of very stale coffee ,what can i say there are some very good coffee roasters here in AUSTRALIA but we olso have some bad ones,good luck OE

FreshCoffee2 · January 2004

Hi OE, we do seem to be a pair of night owls! The points you've brought up are valid and the punters watching this thread should note they do not have anything to do with "consistency" between batches of roasted coffee, rather, this has to do with the actual "grade" of some of the types of coffee used in the blend you were inspecting. If the roaster buys better grades of raw coffee beans, there is less likelihood of finding that which you have described in the blend. The use of best possible grades of coffee means much more uniform looking (and tasting) blends. This is therefore price related. Cheers, FC.

over_extracted · January 2004

Thats right FC you get what you pay for and if its good and the coffee is made right then the customer would enjoy it more :-* and would come back over and over again thats why people that have coffee bars out there should be more educated in the way that coffee is graded and roasted and this way the big boys of the coffee industry can only sell quality ..,now these late nights that you FC call night owl, are the result of many espresso shots making my way every day, I say if you are in the game you have to play hard and during my day that is tasting the coffee that my baristas produce all the time,hey at least i get to see the late movie,ahhh see ya its about to start now....OE

diplomat · February 2004

Hi everyone, This is my first post, just from the outset, it seems like this thread has gone headlong into the finer points without even considering some important factors. Supporting your local roaster is all good and well if thats the way you wish to go, but in doing so, other things must be considered, such as the state and and type of equipment used in production and the storage of the product as it moves along the value chain. The main thing is the taste, and we can avoid the rest of the polemics if we focus only this. It doesnt matter where it came from whether it be down the street, around the block interstate or overseas, if it consistently tastes good and you/your customers like it, use it. I've seen that earlier quotes such as "inconsistancy is good" or that its "not bad", We must acknowledge that customers have a certain level of expectation when they frequent places regularly, and should that expectation not be met, the customer WILL seek an alternative, so consistency is certainly essential. Remember the person who started this thread was asking advice from a business perspective. My advice; try as many as you can, let ur regulars try it, if your customers are happy and your happy, everybody's happy! CHEERS

FreshCoffee2 · February 2004

I like the idea of simplifying this discussion so lets have another go at it and bring it down to the lowest common denominators. The ultimate goal is to give the paying client a good brew. The client has no way of comparing one day's brew from the previous day's brew, so comparisons are futile and exist only in the mind rather than in reality. I believe the punter just wants a good brew and to be left alone to enjoy, pay and leave, and if he is really going to be expected to make a judgment, would need to compare 2 identical coffees made with the 2 different blends, at the same time, by the same operator, for a direct comparison. Otherwise the information you will obtain is useless and a waste of time and should be treated as such. If a cafe client needs to ask his customers what they think of a blend he is trying, then he should be in another business, in any case the caf

FreshCoffee2 · February 2004

I've found this banter about using local roaster / suppliers interesting and would like to expand the topic a little under it's own heading, so if interested please check out the new topic. FC.

diplomat · March 2004

I think that if you discount wat customers have to say then you really are are being arrogant and small minded it is their money after all, that makes our world go round. and when i talk about taste i understand that there are many factors involved, including alll your many points.

FreshCoffee2 · March 2004

Re: "...I think that if you discount wat customers have to say then you really are are being arrogant and small minded it is their money after all, that makes our world go round..." No one should discount what their clients have to say, however on face value the above appears to show that you have misunderstood everything that's already been written. The general public as a whole, can only judge one thing...does their cup of coffee meet their expectation of what they think is good. Most have no concept of, and are unable to discern (and for that matter are not really interested in) whether their good cup of coffee was the result of a particular brand of coffee, or a good espresso machine operator doing his job properly, or both. Their taste buds are also heavily influenced by brand marketing and advertising, and therefore their perceptions of brands, rather than making decisions based on fairly set up blind tastings and comparisons. More importantly, many would not know (or care) that what they just tasted was heavily influenced by the espresso machine operator (50% operator, 25% coffee, 25% equipment). Some might be happy to allow unqualified, biased opinions from their cafe clients to influence their choice of supplier or their relationship with their supplier. I'm not...but when it's all said and done it's all in the way you treat your clients when they offer you their opinion, isn't it? FC.

Unknown · March 2004

dimmatina is not a local perth cmopany mimmo! it is a melbourne based company and the fact that they sell so much of it in perth cafes tells as much about perth cafe owners as the coffee.

Gonzo · March 2004

decisions by many cafe owners to use either this coffee supplier or that, have very little to do with the real flavour or "quality" of any particular brand of coffee beans, and plenty to do with all and other sundry reasons and inducements. So your point is ? G.

Unknown · March 2004

that is my point buddy 8) ...for 95% of perth cafe owners, the freebies they can extract from coffee companies saying "let me be your bitch" is far more important than quality considerations.

Unknown · March 2004

Grinders coffee is no longer roasted in melbourne. It is roasted in Sydney. The history of grinders was a company that establish a great coffee. 3 years ago grinders was ahead of all commercial coffee. They gain clients in major restaurants in Melbourne and had a great product. However!!!!! they became greedy and hungry for money. They expanded fast and start looking at the bottom line. With their brand gaining enormous popularity they they grew to big to fast Now you see light coloured beans, dark colour and just nasty husky rubbish. You cant get a "god shot" from grinders because its full of husky grind. I've put over 23 grams in a basket and i still got crap. It comes out like creamy soda and you see the crema and then it disappears. They have poor ethics with clients. I know of many cafes being burnt by "grinders" If a cafe opens next to you and sells grinders that doesnt make you exclusive to the area. Most coffee companies have regions. Reasons why not to use grinders 1 Bad beans 2 Bad roasting 3 How will you feel when you neighbouring cafe sells the same coffee as you. 4 If the rep says they wont do that, look at the melbourne market. 5 They look out for their own best interest 6 Poor crema 7 Poor robusta beans 8 Extremely cheap coffee 9 Support local roasters 10 Large 3 kg bags which once open will go even worst 11 The time it comes all the way from the east coast to the west coast its gonna be older than old. 12 mixing of light and dark roast 13 Fresh beans is the best way to go 14 grinders sells to anyone. Milk bar accounts whoever whats it. 15 Woody favour 16 grey in texture, end up with grey lattes 17 makes terrible expresso 18 You cant make ristretto with grinders 19 Husky grind 20 JUST BAD COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!! dont risk all that hard work in a business and settle for rubbish. It aint worth it!

Unknown · March 2004

Wood chips and nescafe = Grinders We use to use grinders in our cafe and it was really bad. It was sooooo hard to make coffees when the beans would be different from bag to bag. Then a few other cafes around us started sell it. I made a good coffee but the problem was the other competitors made a terrible grinders coffee. Being next door to me, my branding was affected. People associated my coffee with them. The sales rep had nothing to say. Was extremely dissappointed. Change coffee and things have looked up. Selling 5 kgs more a week with that decision.

Gonzo · March 2004

Ok that's enough. I dont use grinders, I dont work for them, never have, I'm not an agent for them, never been a subbie for them, couldn't care less about them one way or the other. But that doesn't mean I'm willing to accept a dirty hatchet job on them or anyone else from inexpert, uninformed commentators. "3 years ago grinders was ahead of all commercial coffee" Baseless comment; "they became greedy and hungry for money. They expanded fast and start looking at the bottom line. With their brand gaining enormous popularity they they grew to big to fast" Baseless comment; "You cant get a "god shot" from grinders because its full of husky grind: Wrong. A good or bad shot is within the responsibility of the operator behind the machine and happens irrespective of you finding some husk content; "I've put over 23 grams in a basket and i still got crap" No wonder. Is this a test of true coffee knowledge or something? You would be hard pressed on most machines to get much more than around 19 grams maximum into a double filter without tamping with the force of superman into an OVER fine gind and still be able to engage the bayonet lugs into the group ring. Your water pump wouldn't push water through the puk. A crappy brew from inability to set up the equipment properly is your problem not your suppliers problem; "It comes out like creamy soda and you see the crema and then it disappears." So this definitely suggests the "operator" got the grind/dose relationship totally effed up. You say this somehow is grinders problem? "They have poor ethics with clients. I know of many cafes being burnt by "grinders": Baseless comment; "If a cafe opens next to you and sells grinders that doesnt make you exclusive to the area. Most coffee companies have regions." Wrong again...there is no "exclusivity" except in the minds of the naive, everyone else gets business wherever they can. "Reasons why not to use grinders" 1 Bad beans (only your opinion) 2 Bad roasting (only your opinion) 3 How will you feel when you neighbouring cafe sells the same coffee as you (wake up and take some reponsibility. Dare to try and attract clientelle because of your own image and capability, not due to someone elses brand on a wind barrier, ok?) 4 If the rep says they wont do that, look at the melbourne market (no rep doing his job properly for his employer would tell you that) 5 They look out for their own best interest (and you dont?) 6 Poor crema (your inability to set equipment I'm afraid) 7 Poor robusta beans (it so happens robusta is very high in oil content and aids production of crema...see 6, cant have it both ways) 8 Extremely cheap coffee (so you used to be a green bean buyer & know all about grading & purchasing coffee for a roasting plant?) 9 Support local roasters (Correct, they should have the freshest roasts) 10 Large 3 kg bags which once open will go even worst (presumably you could ask for 1 kilo bags and of not, YOU could try opening the 3 kg bag, place in an airtight container and take out a little at a time...couldn't you???) 11 The time it comes all the way from the east coast to the west coast its gonna be older than old (depends on age of roast ex roasting plant, time taken to ship to your market, & storage time with your distributor before eventual delivery to cafes) 12 mixing of light and dark roast (maybe that's the idea of the blend you bought...did you ask them? This style used to be called "french roast" and is a legitimate type of blending technique) 13 Fresh beans is the best way to go (Correct) 14 grinders sells to anyone. Milk bar accounts whoever whats it. (and so do you, or do you discriminate between suits, jeans, shorts, or king gee work wear when they walk in the door with money in their pockets ready to buy) 15 Woody favour (it's within your capacity to ask the rep for a different blend if you dont like that one...no? I dont know too many roasters that only do one blend) 16 grey in texture, end up with grey lattes (back to your own inabilities, or your own choice of blend I'm afraid) 17 makes terrible expresso (cant spell one of the most important words in the coffee market at the moment, so can you brew espresso properly?) 18 You cant make ristretto with grinders (why not? What cant you work out?) 19 Husky grind (and the relevance is?) 20 JUST BAD COFFEE!!!!!!!!!!! Uninformed, baseless slander. End part 1. See next post for part 2

Gonzo · March 2004

Part 2, read on: "dont risk all that hard work in a business and settle for rubbish. It aint worth it!" No argument in principle here, but not in the context that you have attempted to mean above. "Wood chips and nescafe = Grinders" Baseless comment, although I really like the analogy! "We use to use grinders in our cafe and it was really bad." Another baseless comment. "It was sooooo hard to make coffees when the beans would be different from bag to bag." It is simply NOT possible to get differing content in 2 consecutive bags from the same delivery. The chances are that your delivery of say 20 kilos all comes from the same batch, the blend is fully mixed before packaging. Reality check please. "Then a few other cafes around us started sell it. I made a good coffee but the problem was the other competitors made a terrible grinders coffee. Being next door to me, my branding was affected. People associated my coffee with them." Rubbish. Your cafe sells itself and if you make a good cuppa and good food, the clients come to you instead of going next door where as you said, they make terrible coffee. "The sales rep had nothing to say." Already covered above "Change coffee and things have looked up. Selling 5 kgs more a week with that decision." Ok, so now we know you have been feeding us a load of crock. Noone but NOONE, sells an extra 500 cups of coffee a week by changing their coffee supplier....Maybe if a few hundred extra people had just moved into the office building next door. You weren't trying to pull our legs were you? G.

Spjarli_Coffee · March 2004

Well said Gonzo, I couldn't have said it better myself. Yes, I have been served bad Grinders coffee. Ditto for Lavazza, Genovese, Gravity and the other roasters, big and small. At the same time I've had plenty of good coffees from each of these roasters. So it would seem to me that it's not the problem of the roasters but of the so-called 'baristas', many of them glorified coffee-makers. (I hate the increasing usage of this Italian word but that's a personal opinion.) And whilst many people on this forum would never admit it themselves, I have made bad coffee before too but I never blamed the roaster. I am not claiming that all roasters have an equally good product but perhaps it is time the people making the coffee took a bit more responsibility for their product. And one further point, enough of this purist mentality about business being somehow anathema to the coffee-making 'art' (see earlier post slagging off roasters who supply to milk bars). A few people need to wake up and smell the coffee because their noses are obviously so far up their backsides...

Gonzo · March 2004

What these people fail to remember EVERY SINGLE TIME as well as ***TO THEIR OWN DETRIMENT*** is that 50% of the equation really is due to the effort of the "coffee maker", and 25% each is then shared out amongst the coffee beans used, and the state of tune / condition of the equipment. I know it's a cliche, but it's as simple as that. So while they are busy trying to shift the reponsibility for their own ineffectiveness and slagging off on their coffee supplier (and one day one this kind of thing is going to land them in court), at the same time they really are showing their own ineffectiveness and ineptitude in the job AND are underestimating themselves in their own possible importance in the job...if they were doing it properly. Talk about selling themselves short. Now I'm going back to my glass of chardonnay and if you mention that word "barista" one more time, I am going to choke and end up with a cerebral embolism. These people are not a barista's arse hole. Had enough of phoney baristas who dont know their job....their inability to accept responsibility unfairly destroys others good names and costs the industry TIME, and TIME IS MONEY. G.

john · March 2004

Gonzo and Spjarli I think you have both hit the nail well and truly on the head. There are too many prima donnas or prima donjuans who have done the obligatory 3 hour Barista course, made 1 latte and 1 cappuccino and then graduated with honours. Their average knowledge of various roasts, freshness, equipment issues, etc leave a lot to be desired. However, they are Baristi, because they have a certificate that says so. JD

Reschsmooth · March 2004

It's a bit like a real estate agent, having done a two week TAFE course calling themselves an adviser....all they want to do is flog properties at any price to get the commission now rather than wait for it. Sorry, my mocha double decaf latte is ready....see ya

Gonzo · March 2004

Ladies and gentlemen of the Forum....you are giving these wankers too much credit. The truth of the matter is that they probably HAVE NOT done any kind of course, let alone one of the "you pays your money for a 3 hour introductory course and you gets a qualification" type of course. The state of development of the "coffee maker" sector in this country is basically in its infancy. We spend a lot of time in forums like this debating ethical quality in the cafe and coffee industies generally, but the fact of the matter is that out there at the moment...in the real world...is a burgeoning "espresso cafe" industry that just popped up out of nowhere. Kind of like an "Acme" cafe industry, add water and bingo, instant cafe industry, full of instant experts who lack expertise, experience and knowledge. We should still be calling them Milk Bars I'm afraid. Now beat the crap out of me for saying these things if you must but remember, todays society is full of those who dont want to, or cant bear to, handle the truth. Nothing is ever their fault, it's always someone elses. Read the two offending posts. Its all there...the contradictions, the lack of understanding. On the one hand they're putting 23 grams into the filter, on the other they're getting "grey" lattes. So on the one hand the grounds would have been far too fine and packed up hard so no water comes through, and in the very next "hit" the milk coffee is grey, a classic symptom of under extraction due to over coarse grind. Then there's the outright lies (transparent to industry people with experience, but probably very persuasive to the naive), like the one about how a cafe gained sales of 500 coffees a week by changing supplier. This is very serious outright lying designed to impress others that they should change away from the supplier mentioned. Ignorant, spiteful, vindictive crap, and / or someone probably with some kind of agenda to push. G.

FreshCoffee2 · March 2004

I think we will all most probably agree that this topic is now dead in the water, in any case it was probably already adequately answered early on. However it does beg some questions regarding censorship on the Forum. Take a couple of minutes to think. How many of you would like to be DEFAMED in similar manner as has just happened in this topic? Apparently it's very easily done. It would at first appear that the two defamatory posts were a perfect example of a case FOR censorship and for our esteemed Admin to remove the posts from the Forum as soon as they were spotted. By the same token if someone posts a reply or rebuttal that takes care of it, then I guess there is no need for the censorship. However, there sure does seem to be a case for striking unnaceptable posts immediately they are spotted. The problem with posts like that is that not many would feel confident to reply, either for or against, perhaps for fear of ending up in a mud slinging match, therefore there is a high probablity that such posts would be left on the board basically as the very last reponses to the question and i.e. from that point on, the defamatory posts are the last to be seen by onlookers. Mud sticks. I say personal vendettas need to be kept off-line. Censorship, yeah or neah? FC.

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