Size of take-away cups

admin

Here's an article from Fairfax [Age, SMH] re introduction of smaller sized takeaway cups: http://www.goodfood.com.au/good-food/food-news/caffeine-fix-smaller-cups-leave-latte-lovers-flat-20130922-2u84h.html?rand=1379859870503

am assuming most of us won't mind [ie the less milk, the more you taste the actual coffee] but guess there is a 'value' angle to this - thoughts?

A

askthecoffeeguy

personally I'm against the whole smaller cup thing - you just add more coffee to compensate for the less milk and charge accordingly yes prices are going up and margins are coming down - but you still need to offer perceived value for money at the end of the day personally I dont like that much milk in my coffee, so I'll often order a 3/4 length takeaway - less milk, but same amount of coffee still a 3/4 length coffee is a tricky one to get right and many places over extract the coffee, which tastes obviously burnt through the reduced milk! if anything I would offer a smaller cup for those who wanted it, but I cant see how reducing the price of the coffee is going to do the business owner any favours... P

Thundergod

Pat how much have greens gone up lately? A few years ago when I bought my second bag of PNG Kimel there was the same hullabaloo about rising prices yet in reality it was less than 50c/kg from memory. Translating that into the rise in price per cup seemed negligible.

hiphipharar

on 1379901117:

personally I dont like that much milk in my coffee, so I'll often order a 3/4 length takeaway - less milk, but same amount of coffee

I probably should trademark the name but I don't run a business.  Anyway, let me be the first to coin the term 'mezzo latte' . So if a piccolo latte is about 100ml and a regular latte is about 240 ml, a mezzo latte would be around the 150 - 180ml mark

askthecoffeeguy

on 1379903772:

Pat how much have greens gone up lately? A few years ago when I bought my second bag of PNG Kimel there was the same hullabaloo about rising prices yet in reality it was less than 50c/kg from memory. Translating that into the rise in price per cup seemed negligible.

its not the cost of greens that have gone up if anything coffee suppliers have in many instances had to cap prices to remain competitive with the plethora of roasters in the marketplace but the fact remains that speciality coffee, costs considerably more than some brands in the market place, and good quality milk, sustainable packaging, and staff wages are all relatively high, to say nothing of the chronic shortage of skilled and dedicated industry personnel, and the constant and ongoing costs associated with recruitment what no one seems to be taking about is that the cafe market in melbourne at least is according to leading sources, over supplied by about 30 per cent, which means there are not enough customers top go around for the number of cafes that are out there in real terms a cafe needs to be busy all day, every day, and absolutely flat chat on the weekend, in order to thrive but the reality is that all cafes experience unpredictable down time, yes - even the big players! and yet staff overheads remain static if you want to provide great service at all times then you need to be adequately staffed, and this costs money! so calculating the cost of a cup of coffee based upon the raw materials, without considering other costs associated with production is an absolute furphy! I mean in most instances you wouldnt look at a pair of running shoes, and say - oh yeah $5 worth of materials so how come they're theyre charging $200 for them? there a whole host of 'invisible' costs associated with running a cafe, of which what goes into the cup only represents the tiniest fraction... P

mycuppa

7 and 11 oz takeaway cups have been used for some time now - many years in fact. They change the size of the cup (slightly slimmer and taller) and use double, ripple or triple-wall lining to deal with heat retention or so you don't burn your hand. The trend in most cafes in Melbourne has been the cheap, plain, white single-wall T/A cups, that in my mind are quite low-grade for the end-customer - but of course they are easier for the barista to grab when on top of the cup-warmer (and of course they are a bit cheaper to purchase). Similarly, crockery is available in a multitude of sizes. As Pat has outlined, some raw material costs are not relevant in terms of the end-cup price being served to a cafe customer as other factors like labor costs (inclusive of staff turnover), competition, rent, utilities, insurance, compliance, etc. are the big ticket items. Let's also not forget that large parts of the cafe industry in general are very poor payers - many just using their suppliers cash flow to run their business and some deciding it's easier to just go belly-up owing plenty. The majority of coffee roasters run big DSO's, which are both dangerous and expensive to maintain.

lars

When I read the article, seemed to me they were talking about charging same price (for less in the cup) - not that that's necessarily a bad thing, just saying'

derrilex

I tried to get small TA cups a while ago and found there to be a yawning market gap. Personally I think a small should be 5 oz ( singe shot) , a medium should be 7 oz ( double shot ) and a large 10 oz ( triple shot). Prices should be or could be 2.80, 3.50 & 4.50. I have thought about getting these cups made and pushing them around the traps as it would undoubtedly make for better TA's IMHO

admin

Hi guys, just related to the above, we've been tracking the decline in green bean prices for some time; interesting that the fairfax papers have also just come up with this story, from Michael Pascoe their finance editor: http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/the-great-coffee-ripoff--is-no-myth-20130923-2u9bn.html suggest you have a quick read... A

Bottom Line

on 1380185527:

Hi guys, just related to the above, we've been tracking the decline in green bean prices for some time; interesting that the fairfax papers have also just come up with this story, from Michael Pascoe their finance editor: http://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/the-great-coffee-ripoff--is-no-myth-20130923-2u9bn.html suggest you have a quick read... A

I always find these a little silly. The price of raw coffee or roasted doesn't have much to do with the overall cost of the end product. If a cafe was to use 10g per coffee then a price jump from $28 to $34 per kilo would only add 4 cent per coffee. Also if a roaster keeps their profit margin the same but adds in the raw cost the percentage to the end product would be very low. Imagine a roaster buys green for $10 and sells roasted for $30. Profit margin $20. I am keeping things very simple here and just making up the numbers for a point. Then the raw doubles to $20. Keep the margin at $20. Sell the roasted coffee at $40. If a cafe sells a coffee for $3.50 while using 10g per coffee then an increase to $3.60 would cover the cost. The SMH article says that the price is 9.3USD cents per pound below average. This is about 20 AUS cents per kilo. Assume a moisture loss of 20% in roasting that equates to 25cents per kilo and if a roaster reduces the full loss through then the cafe would have to reduce the cost by 0.25 cents per cup to clear this "rip-off". The difference between the peak figure given to now equates to $5.3 AUS per kilo raw. So at the extreme a cafe should reduce the price by $0.07 per coffee. Silly. http://dailycoffeenews.com/2013/09/24/coffee-represents-3-4-percent-of-a-chain-cappuccino-cost-research-group-says/

admin

another journo from the Age having a go at this one: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/its-a-mugs-game-for-the-punters-thats-the-size-of-it-20131012-2vfaq.html comments? A

Brett H

Actually loved it ! Go figure!  It had the right balance of correct research/information, wit and bias with just a sousing of 'younger in cheek'!

Jonty

I was gobsmacked recently when flying out of Perth Airport. I had been dying all week for a decent coffee. I asked for a regular latte... I got given a 12oz... The small is 8oz.... The large is 16oz.... That will be $5.20 for Grinders Giano....

admin

on 1381628025:

another journo from the Age having a go at this one: http://www.theage.com.au/comment/its-a-mugs-game-for-the-punters-thats-the-size-of-it-20131012-2vfaq.html comments? A

seems to me she showed that she didn't really understand specialty coffee at all with the premise that because you're likely to get less milk with the smaller sizes, your coffee will be more bitter 'less milk to mollify the bitterness'... ie it seems like she's missed the point entirely - NOT all coffees are the same - if you choose your cafe carefully then you should get a good [non-bitter] coffee rather than NEEDING to have a lot of milk to cover the taste of stale/poorly made 'average' coffee! :pan PS Jonty - there's a whole other thread on the ridiculous prices that people seem prepared to pay in Perth