Machine under $500 - newbie

cheeky

Hi to all you coffee experts,

I am a newbie and I'm sorry if this gets asked all the time here...

I am in need of a coffee machine for my husband for Christmas and he has already forbidden me to buy anything really expensive (in passing).  I have now decided to buy something under $500 (so I won't get in trouble, lol).  

We used to have a basic Breville one, don't remember the model, but it's $100 or so.  The problem with it was that it was too hard to boil and re-boil the water.  When I made the coffee, it used to come out cold!  The pressure in the water tank was also a problem.  My husband tried to refill the water after making a coffee and when he opened the lid, it "exploded" and had water everywhere!!!  Now it's sitting in his office (but he's not using it!).

In our household, only my husband drinks coffee.  He'd have a long black each morning and a bit more on the weekend.  I guess when people come over, they probably want coffee as well.  The only use I have with the machine is the froth.

I am thinking about getting a Saeco Via Venezia.  What do you think?  Will it do the job?  What are its pros and cons?  What else is on the market?  I've heard about the Breville ESP8b would do the same job but costing less.  Is that true?

What about grinders??  I didn't know they cost so much until I read some of the posts here.  I thought they were less than $50!  Maybe it'd be stupid of me to ask for a recommendation of a cheap grinder??

Thanks in advance

lars

Hi there - a simple rule of thumb at the low end is that you should think about spending almost as much (alright, maybe half as much) on a grinder as on the actual espresso machine. The Via Venezia's a great machine at its price - certainly much better than the breville. The only thing is that you probably want to look at the grinder page (you could look at crema's ad above) to get an idea of grinders - and look at paying at least enough for the low end one. You still won't have broken the rule in terms of not having spent more than $500 on a machine! Lars  

Remus

alot of good talk about the sunbeam 6900. you should be able to pick one of those up for around $500. i'd put the grinder off until his b'day or a later date if i were you. to try and spend $500 on machine and grinder will be too much of a comprimise on one or the other and you'll end up regretting it IMO. get the machine first and then buy a decent grinder later down the track.

cheeky

Why is a grinder so important?  Pardon my ignorance, but don't they just grind?

mattyj

yep - but it's how they grind that makes all the difference. A really really dirt cheap grinder will give you coffee grinds that look like dust and boulders. No consistency or evenness. A more expensive grinder, depending on a number of factors will give a more consistent and even grind - in plunger this means less sediment at the bottom of the cup, in espresso this means less chance of channelling (resulting in a thin, watery espresso), and a more even extraction. The cheapest grinder I'd go for is the same as the Solis 166, but rebadged by Delonghi as the 'kg100'. I've used one for 2 years, and it now serves me very well as my grinder for the plunger at work. With a lot of effort and time spent learning, it used to be able to produce a decent enough grind for my old sunbeam.

Honest_Gaza

alot of good talk about the sunbeam 6900. you should be able to pick one of those up for around $500. .

Confirming that you should be able to get the Sunbeam 6900 for around $500, although most shops advertise it at $599.  I got mine for $499. As to whether or not I'd recommend it ????? The jury is still out. I've had a couple of probelms with the "Steamer" which has since been repaired.  Their service appears to be excellent (see other threads that I have started on this).

cheeky

I've read reviews from various sources that Solis 166 is a good grinder.  Choice magazine said that it's the same as Delonghi KG100.  I can't seem to find the Solis one in major dept. stores, but they have the Delonghi one.  Would anyone recommend the Delonghi one?

mattyj

considering the only difference is that one says 'solis' on the side, and the other says 'delonghi' on the side ... i have no problems recommending the delonghi. It really will depend on how 'into' coffee you/your husband are/forsee becoming. The delonghi really suits the cheaper end machines (the cheaper sunbeams and brevilles), but struggles once you start to upgrade to a more expensive machine. If you started looking at the sunbeam em6900 (which I have no experience with), and machines above that (gaggia's, rancilio silvia's, up to ecm giotto's, expobars, and 1 group commercial machines) the grinder will struggle to grind fine/evenly enough. Some people will say it won't grind fine enough, I say it will struggle to grind fine enough, because you can open the grinder up and make a few adjustments, to the detriment of the life of the burrs.

Remus

matty, i have a shitty gaggia grinder at home that i've had for 7 or 8 yrs and i still grind with it every now and then when my rocky is full and i have a new bean i want to try. if i set up blind cups from my rocky or the gaggia, i doubt anyone could tell the difference in coffee. truly. even the great FC. ;D the main prob is what you pointed out before with consistency. i use the back of a spoon to iron out the lumpy stuff if i ever get it and the static can be annoying. not great sure, i appreciate that. but if your on a budget ?   i'd prefer a 6900 with a crappy grinder than a crappy machine with an ok grinder. besides which if you get a decent machine and you don't have a grinder at home. visit gloria jeans and get your stuff ground. or just save your money and buy a decent one down the track. at least you only have one thing to upgrade. i think grinders are the most overrated piece of coffee equipment there is when it comes to coffee quality. just my opinion.

mattyj

Remus, you're talking to the guy who was grinding for his sunbeam with a mazzer mini! A grinder that was at least twice the price of the machine! EDIT: the main problem I had with a cheaper grinder was the adjustmentability - one notch would choke the machine, the next notch would gush too quickly - there was too much making up for the grinder by adjusting the dose and tamp. On a more serious note - if you're just after a machine at this point in time, best bet would be either a sunbeam 6900, or a gaggia, or a saeco vv. The latter two may annoy you with the froth enhancers on the steam wand ... If you are keen on a griner, the solis/delonghi will do the trick fine. Yeah, you'll get static problems, and there will be some inconsistency, but you don't really notice it til you turn your kitchen into a mad scientist espresso lab ... other than that, for a bit of a treat when people come over, you could get a manual grinder (look for a brand called 'zassenhaus' - they're about $90 ... my dad has one, and it's so much better than the $30 manual one I got from myer), and either invite your guests to grind their own (a little novelty for fun), or bring the grinder out to the dinner table and grind there. You get a good workout too!

cheeky

With the grinders, which would be better and why?  The manual Zassenhaus or Solis 166/Delonghi KG100?  BTW, where do you buy a Zassenhaus or Rancilio in Sydney?  Leichhardt??  I just don't see them at normal dept stores.   Thanks

Remus

Remus, you're talking to the guy who was grinding for his sunbeam with a mazzer mini! A grinder that was at least twice the price of the machine!!

lol i know mate. for once we're on opposite ends of the spectrum on this one !!!

Remus

With the grinders, which would be better and why?

cheeky

I had a look at a coffee retailer website and found that there's more than one Zassenhaus grinder!  Stupid me, should have known!  I am getting more and more confused  ???  Which Zassenhaus would you recommend?  Would it be a better option than the Delonghi KG100?  Thanks.

Honest_Gaza

Cheeky....just an observation on your original post. If budget is only allowing for one or the other, make sure you get hubby the machine (not the grinder). You can always source the ground coffee elsewhere until such time as a grinder is purchased.  (Won't be much fun if he has to take his "freshly ground" beans to GJ's and ask them to shove it through their coffee machine  ;D)

cheeky

Honest_Gaza, I just won't tell my hubby the grinder is extra, lol.  I am prepared to get a grinder on top of the under $500 machine.

Remus

Honest_Gaza, I just won't tell my hubby the grinder is extra, lol.

cheeky

Yes, $500 for a Rancilio Silvia would be a bargain, but I don't know where I can find it at that price  :-/ Anyway, how long do these coffee machines and grinders last?  If they only last a couple of years, then there is no point for me to get a Silvia.

mattyj

I think all Zassenhaus grinders are the same, but you'll pay extra for different bodies etc... just look for one that looks like a box with the handle etc on top, and a little drawer in the box where the grinds go into. that said, sunbeam are about to bring out a snazzy looking grinder ... http://www.designawards.com.au/images/submit-images/05-06/085/large-3.jpg, but I know nothing about it. Any machine, if you treat it well (not just cleaning, but maintenance) should last a long time.

Remus

Yes, $500 for a Rancilio Silvia would be a bargain, but I don't know where I can find it at that price

mattyj

regarding the sunbeam grinder I mentioned above: it's out! I saaw one in myer, and even though I grind with a mazzer mini, this thing had me drooling. It's $199, but looks worth it.

cheeky

Thanks everyone for your suggestions :D I am going to either get a VV with a grinder (still not sure to go Delonghi or Zassenhaus) or a Silvia (if I can pick one up on special) without a grinder.

FreshCoffee2

Cheeky, I dont think anyone has mentioned that if you buy a hand grinder (ANY hand grinder) instead of an electric grinder, there is the possibility you may not be satisfied....and still end up going to an electric which then blows your budget way out (buying 2 grinders instead of 1). When grinding coffee suitable for pump driven espresso machines (ie reasonably fine, not medium or coarse) they are very slow to draw the beans in, grind & deliver, and the handle is VERY hard to push around. The finer the grind, the harder (understatement) you have to work to push the handle around, the slower the delivery. You will get grey hair while grinding enough coffee for your cuppa, and your arms will get end up twice the size with the build up of muscle

cheeky

Thanks, FC, I hadn't considered the difficulty in using a manual grinder

One-a-day

Hi This sounds like it could be too good to be true ,I got sent a mail from a friend telling me to have a look at a "eurolab" machine with built in grinder at dealsdirect.com.au it claims the machine retails for $449 but they are selling them for $99 plus postage. there is not a great deal of info about the machine just a basic description . Any one know about eurolab? Ive never heard of them. I just got access to the choice review of machines and it gives some good comparison tests of machines and a bit of food for thought , here's the top 3 manual espresso machines KRUPS Nespresso 893 $400 SAECO Magic Espresso Silver  $349 BREVILLE ESP8B $210 You often get what you pay for but its not always the case The DELONGHI EC410 did ok and at $249 sounds like good value to experiment with and will leave room for a grinder I think I will get a breville cafe roma stainless or a delonghi ec410 but ive got to wait until January so who knows what will happen then

franjae

Cheeky, David Jones has in their latest catalogue the Nemox Dell Opera with built in Nemox grinder for $699. OK, so it's got a built in grinder that some of us don't like.  What about an Imat Mokita and a Lux grinder?  DJ has the Lux for $250.  You may just be able to buy both for $700. Mattyj, the Sunbeam grinder is advertised by DJ for $179.95!  Looks good..... If that is as good as the Lux, Cheeky, you will be well under budget!!! Cheers franjae

admin

We do bi-annual domestic machine reviews in Crema (last one in our Winter 05 issue) and although sometimes time constraints mean we can't do them as 'in-depth' as i'd like, i'd still have to say i'm more confident of our results than those of Choice. The BREVILLE ESP8B came up in our '03 review as a competent machine for the price, but i wouldn't touch the Nespresso - firstly because it's made by Krups, and secondly because it uses pods - which by definition are not fresh coffee. We didn't specifically test the Saeco Magic 'Silver' but I also wouldn't touch the EC410. Personally, I think i'd stick with the Saeco VV and if necessary, go for the grinder on birthday. Admin.

One-a-day

I thought it was a bit strange that choice had a rating for taste . Taste being a very subjective and individual  thing. And who did the testing/judging. Anything specifically wrong with the Delonghi? . I should probably stick with the breville.

cheeky

One-a-day, I read somewhere that the $99 machine makes worse coffee than instant. Another question, aside from the coffee machine and grinder, is there anything else I need to buy (other than the beans, of course!)?  I recall seeing "baristas" putting a thermometer type thing in the jug when frothing to measure the temperature.   Thanks.

Remus

a knock box can be handy, around the $40 mark. the thermometer "thing" is just that, a milk thermometer to make sure you don't burn the milk which is around $30. you also need something to tamp the coffee down with. depending on which machine you buy you may get a decent one in the box. the thermometer is a must imo. the knock box is optional.

mattyj

I've turned into a cup freak - always on the lookout for cool cups. Every cafe I go to, I pay attention to the cups - how thick, how heavy, what shape, what volume etc etc. If you check homeware stores, you'll get some decent maxwell williams cups, but if you want really nice cups, look for ACF cups, Nuova Point cups ... or if you're insane, check ebay for illy cups ... but be prepared to spend over $100 for one cup...Don't think I'll ever buy one (though I did recently read of a guy spending something like $6-700 on one gold-lined espresso cup!)