Newbe's low end machine?

garymck

Hi,
I'm on a very restricted budget, and was wondering if there is a good low end machine available - say under $200. I am the only coffee drinker in the house and except for the odd dinner party will rarely need to make more than 2-3 cups in a row. I really adore a good cup, but simply can't afford the $500 plus machines.

I was going to by a Breville esp8b based on the Choice review, but have seen some cryptic comments regarding the review that have left me a little nervous.

thanks for the help

Gary

Lovey

G'day Gary, Do you have, or are planning on buying a grinder? If not, you'll be greatly limiting your coffee drinking experience as the coffee should be ground immediately prior to preparing the nectar . Getting away from the grinder issue, what sort of coffee do you like? Do you drink espresso's or milk drinks, ie latte's, cappa's, etc?  This can affect your choice of machine as well. Give us a few more details and I'm sure someone will be able to help. All the best, Steve P.S. Take what Choice says with a pinch of salt in relation to espresso machines, but I think you've worked that out already. 8)

Reschsmooth

Just an idea, and I know you have indicated you are looking at espresso machines, but how about buying a decent grinder and a good plunger - perhaps 2 - one for you (maybe a 2 cup) and one for dinner parties (say, a 6 cup). At least this way, you will look pretty cool when you grind directly for the plunger with friends around, and perhaps give you longer to save for a more expensive espresso machine (such as a Silvia) down the track if you still want to. Just an idea. P

garymck

Hi, I will buy a grinder as well, so suggestions on this are welcome as well. I'm primarily a cappa/latte/milk based drinker. Find a short black makes my head buzz too much ! My hand has been forced cos I spent the weekend in Adelaide, and I had the Best cappa I've ever had from a street vendor who took obvious care in what he was preparing. It was like nectar of the gods and I simply can't drink plunger stuff anymore. I have to learn to do it properly, if on a very tight budget. thanks for your interest gary Do you have, or are planning on buying a grinder? If not, you'll be greatly limiting your coffee drinking experience as the coffee should be ground immediately prior to preparing the nectar . Getting away from the grinder issue, what sort of coffee do you like? Do you drink espresso's or milk drinks, ie latte's, cappa's, etc?  This can affect your choice of machine as well. Give us a few more details and I'm sure someone will be able to help. All the best, Steve P.S. Take what Choice says with a pinch of salt in relation to espresso machines, but I think you've worked that out already. 8)[/quote]

Remus

sorry 2 be the bearer of bad news but if you're trying to replicate the results you have just tried in adelaide, "best capp you ever had", for $200 you're going to be sadly disappointed. it's like saying you went for a joyride in a ferrari and it was the best driving experience you ever had and then rocking up to a toyota dealer saying you want to replicate the experience by only spening $13K on a 3 door yaris. i think resch's suggestion was spot on. otherwise, save your cash and wait until you buy something decent.

garymck

Hi, not really expecting to duplicate the results of the fellah in Adelaide. But he awakened n me the desire to larn more about coffee, learn to make a better coffee, and hopefully achive a better result than with a plunger. I'd love to buy a really good machine, ut it will be a year or so before that will be possible. I had hoped to get a reasonable low end machine and learn how to produce a good coffee with that. Then, when I can afford a good machine I would hopefully be able to produce a great cuppa!! I just need a suggestion for a low end starter machine that has some potential. Sometimes one can hear beautiful music with a cheap hifi - if you know how to tune it..... cheers Gary

mattyj

under $200 - get a good grinder. If you don't want to spend too much money on a grinder, but you're happy with spending energy, then look for a 'zassenhaus' grinder - they're manual (ie: you turn a lever, which turns the burrs, rather than a motor doing it for you), and they're probably the best of the hand-grinders. My Dad inherited an old one from his dutch parents, and it's beautiful to use. A new Zass costs around $90 from memory. Machine-wise (with $110 left) I'd say plunger. But if you're so turned off plunger coffee, I'd say search ebay (the online garage sale) for a cheap machine. Stay away from sunbeams and brevilles (I used a sunbeam for nearly 2 years) - the thermoblocks and cheap group seals will only frustrate you in the end. Maybe look at 2nd hand gaggia's or saeco via venezio's. 2nd hand may be the onyl way to go with a small budget. Failing that - save big time. Get an account that will earn you lots of interest, stick your $200 in that, add some money to it each week (eg:$20) and before you know it, you'll have enough for at least a rancilio silvia/rocky combination.

Reschsmooth

Hey Gary I hope none of us are coming across as such, but we are not trying to dissuade you from buying any kind of machine, or try to suggest that you can only get good coffee from a $2,000+ machine. We encourage anyone starting their journey on the learning curve of espresso. However, I think that you should expect that any machine you will get in that price range will probably have the following: 1. A crema-enhancing or pressurised portafilter. These artificially create 'crema' by using springs and valves in the portafilter to create pressure, as opposed to firmly packed ground coffee. 2. A 'froth-enhancer' - these tend to assist you in creating very bubbly milk froth, as opposed to tight microfoam. 3. Almost all home machines without a 3 way solenoide (or whatever it is called) will require a resting period between shots to get rid of built up pressure in the filter. 4. Most single boiler/thermoblock machines without a heat exchanger will require a heat up time between extracting the shot and steaming the milk. That said, if you use fresh coffee, an appropriate grind (preferably immediately before pulling the shot) and patience, you can still produce a very good cup of coffee. I know I will be shot down for suggesting this, but have you considered [whispers] 'ebay'? I am sure others with much greater knowledge will provide more info. Sorry, I don't know any machines to recommend to specifically answer your questions. Cheers P

Unknown

Personally I dont have experience with the Sunbeams, but I have a friend who bought one and is very happy. It is the 2 boiler thermoblock model which he paid $480 for. Add a grinder and we are well over your budget. But did you consider an interest-free deal at somewhere like Harvey-Norman ? I know it is not ideal, but at least you get to enjoy a decent coffee and pay only 25% up front for 18 months or so. I dont know the exact details. Something to consider. 98%Caffeine.

Remus

Sometimes one can hear beautiful music with a cheap hifi - if you know how to tune it..... cheers Gary

lol no amount of tuning is gonna help mate. i'm not trying to be an @ss here gary but $200 is gonna buy you a machine/grinder combo that won;t give you the results you are looking for and it will end up in the back of the bottom cupboard of your pantry or straight out the window once you get frustrated. i am yet to see or hear of a $200 machine/ grinder package that is gonna get you anything resembling decent. just being honest mate. matty's advice is on the money, (no pun intended)...save, save, save. i think the gaggia classic would be about the best entry level machine and even thats around the $400 mark from memory. maybe there's someone else can recommend one within your price range. good luck !

garymck

Hi, the grinder would be seperate from the coffee maker - didn't expect that I would get both for $200..... cheers Gary

garymck

Hi guys, first thanks for your patience with a newbe. I've decided to wait a bit and buy a quality grinder. I was not aware of just how inportant a quality grinder was to the final product. I've decided to live with a plunger but upgrade the budget to get a good grinder (up to around $250) that will be used later with a decent espresso machine. So now is there a particular grinder that I should buy that will complenment a machine in the $500-600 range at a later date?? cheers and thanks again for your patience Gary

Unknown

Hi Gary. I have a Nemox (sometimes also called a Lux). Doesn't seem to have a model number. It is pretty plain looking, but is a good little grinder with conical burrs and you can put the group in underneath the chute to fill it directly or continuous grinding via switch. It has 12 grind settings with one-third  graduations for a total of 36 settings. It normally goes for somewhere in the low $200 mark , but I got mine used for $100. I'm very happy with it. Cheers, 98%Caffeine.

Lovey

G'day Gary, for that sort of money you could look these: - a Solis 166 or 167 (also badged as a Starbucks or DeLonghi KG100) - a Lux, or for a few extra dollars, - an Iberital challenge. There are probably others which I haven't mentioned, but these are the ones that sprang to mind. The Solis may not be as long lasting as some of the other grinders, depending on how much you use it. I'd PM or ring Fresh Coffee from this site and check his stocks and prices.  He'll give you an honest appraisal and good, no BS advice. Hope this helps, Steve.

Reschsmooth

Grinders, grinders, grinder.....hmmmm, where to find information? You almost wish that there was a banner at the top of the page that would link to another part of the website which provided information including prices on different grinders.... :P had to do it P

Honest_Gaza

Gary....let me speak from experience.

Remus

I have since upgraded to a $600 Sunbeam machine.

nzroaster

I would have to agree with everyone here, except for the plunger part. Why not compliment your new grinder with a vac-pot. Something like a Hario or Bodum Santos you could get for under $150. Since having a vacpot I havent even taken the plunger out of the cupboard. It gives you a silky smooth, and full flavoured cup-compared to the plungers muddy (in both taste and texture) cup.

mattyj

speaking for myself, I didn't recommend vac pot because I've never tried it! That said, I have been curious - I'd love to give it a try one day.

mattyj

Coffee that is available ground from a decent coffee roaster is of a consistent grind...

...and is stale by the time you get it home. But hey, if you cover it with milk and sugar, it tastes fine! There's a general opinion that plunger coffee isn't so good. I thought that for a while too. But I've been going back to plunger while I'm at work, using fresh coffee, ground seconds before adding the water. And I can say that I never remembered plunger coffee tasting so good! I look back, and I realise this is the case because when I used to drink plunger (pre-espresso days), I was drinking brick-packed coffee, imported from Italy. The only way I could drink the stuff was with milk and sugar.

garymck

ok, I succumbed to a moment of madness and bought a cheap esspresso machine - got a Sunbeam Ristretto for $65.00 at the Sunbeam factory outlet near Highpoint shopping Centre. Reports are that it can make an acceptable brew. I hope so, it might keep me happy until I can afford that $700 machine.... They also had a few other models at around 30-35% off retail. cheers Gary

garymck

Well, I've now tried the sunbeam with some pre ground (shudder) Coffex stuff from the supermarket. This was the only one that said it was OK for esspresso machines. Despite tamping as hard as I could I, I could not get the shot to take more than 12 seconds to pull. Despite this, I got some nice crema, and I have to say, this was the first coffee I have EVER enjoyed without sugar or milk, no bitterness at all. Gotta get that grinder so I can fine the coffee down for the 20 second pull!! I fear I am now on a slippery slope, if I thought anyone would want it, I would now sell my body to earn the money for a top grinder/machine combo. Whatever I have I been enjoying for years, it certainly was not coffee!!!! I'm beginning to see/taste what coffee really is..... cheers Gary

mattyj

There is no way that you can make a better espresso (ie: no milk or sugar) with a plunger than I can with my old Breville... I don't care how fresh the coffee is..

umm ... espresso and plunger coffee are two very different brewing methods resulting in two very different drinks. Better sort out your definition of drinks...

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion though..

yes they are. All I was trying to say was that there's a general assumption that plunger = bad coffee. Like the assumption that a single shot of espresso (ie: short black) has more caffiene than a single shot of espresso with steamed milk added (ie: flat white).

PS: I'm pretty sure it matters MORE when the coffee was roasted rather than when it was ground.

mattyj

Well, I've now tried the sunbeam with some pre ground (shudder) Coffex stuff from the supermarket. This was the only one that said it was OK for esspresso machines. Despite tamping as hard as I could I, I could not get the shot to take more than 12 seconds to pull. Despite this, I got some nice crema, and I have to say, this was the first coffee I have EVER enjoyed without sugar or milk, no bitterness at all. Gotta get that grinder so I can fine the coffee down for the 20 second pull!! I fear I am now on a slippery slope, if I thought anyone would want it, I would now sell my body to earn the money for a top grinder/machine combo. Whatever I have I been enjoying for years, it certainly was not coffee!!!! I'm beginning to see/taste what coffee really is..... cheers Gary

Gary, great to hear! I owned a sunbeam ristretto for a few days this year - I gave it to a friend in need! If you're struggling to get longer extraction times, you can try adding more coffee to the basket, to compensate for the grind. The design of the shower screen/group head on sunbeams and brevilles allows you to updose until you're a milimeter of two shy of the rim of the basket (tamped), but I'd keep it a bit lower than that. Beware: if you do this, the expansion of the coffee when the water hits can force the portafilter to unscrew itself out of the grouphead, breaking your cup and making a real mess, but it only takes one hand to hold the portafilter in during brewing. Sometimes two hands to secure the machine! Welcome to the dark side!

sharkboy

A good burr grinder, fresh coffee (not just bought from the supermarket fresh   ) and a french press would be my choice over an inexpensive espresso machine and an inexpensive grinder any day. I used to have and average espresso machine,a Gaggia Baby, and a very average grinder ie the Gaggia MM grinder that came with the Baby. Then one day I ended up in posession of a Gino Rossi RR45. The Rossi seems to be the poor cousin of a Mazzer and is the workhorse of many small cafes. Using the Gino Rossi grinder there was a noticable difference in the cup. My current setup of a HX E61 machine and a Mazzer Mini Electronic are lightyears ahead of where I started. The thing is, I could make some fairly nice shots on the Gaggia if using a decent grinder, but no matter what machine I'm using, I've never been able to produce anything decent with a cheap grinder. Just recently I've been doing some brewing with a french press using my own home roasted coffee. Freshly roasted and ground (in a decent burr grinder) coffee when used in a french press is really a revelation. I didn't used to like plunger coffee, but now I realise that I wasn't doing it the right way. Thus my original declaration that I'd rather a good grinder and a plunger than an average machine and an average grinder. Just my POV. Stephen

Reschsmooth

I thought the point Mattyj was making was that buying preground coffee is going to stale and have a greater [negative]impact on the final result compared to buying whole beans, even a couple of weeks old and grinding them just prior to preparing the shot/plunger. This then carries on to the suggestion that a decent grinder and plunger may yield a better result than only buying an espresso machine and buying preground coffee. My suggestion of a plunger+grinder was just that, a suggestion. To then go on and say 'plunger is crap', 'you will never get a decent cup out of it', blah blah only compromises the discussion. There is more than one way to enjoy a good cup of coffee. I have noticed that a lot of the threads on this forum are becoming increasingly hostile and defensive, with the implied comment that 'everyone is entitled to their own opinion as long as it is mine'. I know I have probably contributed to this. Good, passionate debate is needed but when people become self-righteous, it destroys that debate. That's my opinion, and you bloody well better agree!  ;D P

nunu

Say the newbie in question decided that it is best to have a decent grinder, one that won't need to be upgraded for some time.  He/she spends their entire budget on a good quality grinder, say Lux or Iberital.  The best option to go from there is either a french press or espresso pot.  I don't know why there's such a stigma attached to plungers, they will make a quick cup, add some warmed milk and you have an ok cup of coffee.  Same thing goes with a pot, albeit a bit more work.  Italians have been using pots for years, and there's no complaints from them.  Though how some of them prefer charcoal for coffee is beyond me  :-X Since the newbie cannot possibly afford a 'dream machine,' it may still be in his/her best interests to at least get a piece of equipment that will probably never need to be upgraded.  That's how I would approach the problem of a smaller budget, rather than a piecemeal solution that you have to add on, and upgrade every time you are disappointed with the end results. I believe you need a firm base to start from, whether it be grinder or coffee machine.  If you can't afford the machine, go with a grinder.  Don't be ashamed to say you have a Zass manual grinder.  They are inexpensive and very aesthetically pleasing.  They will deliver a decent result.  Also, don't be ashamed to say you enjoy plunger coffee or coffee from an espresso pot. From the humble plunger to the top of the line commercial machine, they all produce coffee-flavoured water.

mattyj

BUT you are completely missing the point.

admin

Interestingly, there are a lot of senior coffee people who would say that the plunger is a good option - in fact, when it comes to discerning a good single origin, my understanding is that plunger is far preferred over espresso. On the espresso front, when we tested the low-end Sunbeam (at that time RRP$100), we found it produced a surprisingly good shot; and at $60 it's virtually the same price as a decent plunger. If you look at current market pricing, what seems amazing to me is that you now have the option; ie paired with a reasonably good grinder for around $150 or just above (see our grinder page as reference) - for all the freshness reasons discussed above - it's amazing that these days you now have the option of freshly ground coffee with plunger, or in espresso form, for just over $200! -A

Unknown

Sorry guys and gals, I'll stick to reading instead of typing.  I was only speaking from experience.. obviously that experience is limited.  

mattyj

Hey Paulie, it's all good! We're in this for the love of good coffee, right? let's learn from each other! The fact is, plunger coffee is often made like crap. Stale grinds that have been stored in the freezer for a year or so, with boiling hot water added to it is never going to taste nice, yet that's what many of us started drinking as 'real coffee', as opposed to instant coffee. Suddenly, we try an amazing coffee from a great cafe, and of course, plunger tastes like boiled dirt. But made right, plunger is great. I wouldn't compare it to espresso (apples and oranges), but it's still just as great. From what I can understand, the cupping method that most roasters use is very similar in brewing principles to plunger coffee - similar grind coarseness, similar water temps, similar steeping times ... except with cupping, you get a mouthful of grinds, and you often spit it out rather than swallowing. Peace! And time for another coffee...