How to describe roasts on Crema

Lacehim

I've been thinking... yep a dangerous thing!

I've noticed that there are varying way of describing the depth of roast from using the Coffee Snobs CS1-10 profiles (at least from memory it was 1-10, might be wrong) and others using terms like full city etc.  I'm not saying any of that is wrong, just that there are varying methods.

I was wondering what thoughts others had on the matter?  Should we as a forum adopt a roast profile scale type thingy or leave it up to the choice of the poster as to what method they use?  Would that confuse people new to roasting?

Koffee_Kosmo

on 1330041758:

I've been thinking... yep a dangerous thing! I've noticed that there are varying way of describing the depth of roast from using the Coffee Snobs CS1-10 profiles (at least from memory it was 1-10, might be wrong) and others using terms like full city etc.  I'm not saying any of that is wrong, just that there are varying methods. I was wondering what thoughts others had on the matter?  Should we as a forum adopt a roast profile scale type thingy or leave it up to the choice of the poster as to what method they use?  Would that confuse people new to roasting?

I go by the international terms from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coffee_roasting And I can make up a sticky post in the appropriate section KK

UNM

Approaching this from a different angle - when I read descriptions of roasts I like to know more than just how dark it is. Sometimes I read the descriptions just out of interest, sometimes so I can attempt to replicate (or improve on) the roast. What I like to know are: Any gotchas/surprises like does it run away at first crack, need a lot of heat, etc How quickly it was roasted. How far past  first or second crack. Was the roast particularly successful, or What might improve it. Any tweaks used like ' long drying phase' I find absolute temperatures to be less than useful as every roaster is different. Some data point such as ' first crack at X

paranomia

Are those Wikipedia terms international or just american?  I thought the SweetMaria's guide was one of the best - Wikipedia lists it as one of the references but there is a fairly large difference betwixt. When is somebody going to come up with a cheep&nasty Agtron-esque meter - something like a webcam and LED lights in a cardboard box with paint colour sample patches for calibration.  Then we could say "my Yemen came out somewhere between Dulux Impala and Taubmans Pumpernikle" :D  Hmmm... maybe using Pantone colours would be better...

FreshCoffee2

As far as I know they're american, so you will have to draw your own conclusion on what that may mean wrt coffee roasting everywhere else in the world...FWIW I am not in favour of the WikiP descriptors. They are for the american market, but because its up there on the net in the WikiP for all to see, it becomes established as a world standard. But we here dont do it their way...do we? Roasters with little experience and or using imprecise roasting methods cant help get inconsistencies in the colour of the roasted coffee, and maybe that is why there seem to be so many different shades and descriptors in them...to cater for whatever anyone might drop out of their roasting plant. I believe you should be able to get away with.... a) light roast (eg german / greek / american / whatever, you know the colour) b) medium roast (eg northern Italian style) c) dark roast (eg southern italian / turkish / spanish, whatever, you know the colours....doesnt matter because they are all burnt) Any more than that in my honest opinion is not necessary.....EXCEPT where for example, someone is being asked to contract roast specific coffees to a specific colour spec. (given a specific supplied roast profile) for their specific use, which they are going to pay you for.... Then may I suggest the most appropriate scale to use is the Agtron scale....and bobs your uncle.  That is the only time I use any form of colour scale. It is understood that I am roasting with high end professional equipment, but the point I am making is that even I dont use (and dont need to use) colour codes other than basically, light / medium /  dark where any small variations within the three shades of colour are governed by the changes I make to the drop temp as a result of my cupping, and this is a dynamic thing that will change over time as the greens or environmental factors change. And of course to complicate matters and as stated by others, there are different roasting machines and techniques so you may all arrive at the same colour on anyones particular colour scale, but get quite a different cup anyway due to the different equipment and profiles used. In which case what good is such a detailed colour spec? What does it really mean? Lastly, for the types of coffee that people in this group appear to be roasting, I expect you would all be dropping your coffees out at somewhere around the medium roast colour, with small variation depending on your individual set ups, techniques, experience and the individual demands of your palates. As to "inventing" yet more roast colour scales, my question would be why reinvent the wheel when it already exists in one form or another and means so little (to me) anyway. My vote therefore is "please not another colour scale". The KISS principle rules.

Brett H

Great subject topic and timely too becasue I have wondered this recently.  I love Atillio's suggestion of light, medium and dark becasue every time I go to describe a colour I have to look up Sweet Maria and depending on what and when you google, sometimes she aint so sweet... :angel:

Lacehim

I don't actually use a scale anymore really, and I never really understood what the big diff between CS8 & CS9 was anyway.  I just roast based on where it's at in terms of 1c and 2c etc. and hope it turns out nice in the cup. I did use it when I started however, which is why I brought it up, mainly because the CS scale one is from a another forum, and the City type I saw as US based one.  I found it useful when posting online when I started when I was struggling to hear cracks, and fumbling my way though roasting coffee as a newbie.  I'm no pro now, but I'm enjoying it more, and relaxed while I do it.  No logging, just me my KKTO, a beer and my senses!

on 1330134542:

I believe you should be able to get away with.... a) light roast (eg german / greek / american / whatever, you know the colour) b) medium roast (eg northern Italian style) c) dark roast (eg southern italian / turkish / spanish, whatever, you know the colours....doesnt matter because they are all burnt)

Great post, I like your way of thinking, and I like the above, simple and easy to understand.

FreshCoffee2

Thank you for the very kind comments. A lot of thought and time goes into this stuff

derrilex

on 1330135645:

Great subject topic and timely too becasue I have wondered this recently.  I love Atillio's suggestion of light, medium and dark becasue every time I go to describe a colour I have to look up Sweet Maria and depending on what and when you google, sometimes she aint so sweet... :angel:

:rofl: :-* I would have thought your Green Apple scale is all you would need Brett  :rofl: :-*

paranomia

on 1330135830:

... No logging, just me my KKTO, a beer and my senses!...

Ain't life grand!!  I'm going to have to roast more in the arvo, or at least once the sun is over the yard arm, or maybe move the yard arm :D And thanks Atillio for another of your invariably insightful posts - we definitely don't need more redundant standards.  The Engineer in me wants numbers but the Creative likes the sound of Methode Lacehimoise.

Koffee_Kosmo

So are we at an agreement as to what we would like to refer to from now on Using the KISS principle Light Roast Medium Roast Dark Roast In conjunction with - 1st crack - before/after - with possibly a time notation Second crack - before/after - with possibly a time notation KK

Lacehim

on 1330164057:

The Engineer in me wants numbers but the Creative likes the sound of Methode Lacehimoise.

I had to supress the engineer in me, and be more laid back to roast well.  Took some time, but the roasting has vastly improved, and less stressful.

on 1330165190:

So are we at an agreement as to what we would like to refer to from now on Using the KISS principle Light Roast Medium Roast Dark Roast In conjunction with - 1st crack - before/after - with possibly a time notation Second crack - before/after - with possibly a time notation KK

Maybe we can do a vote?  Can't say I know how to do one of them, but that has mine.  KISS is best in my book.

Koffee_Kosmo

Maybe we can do a vote?  Can't say I know how to do one of them, but that has mine.  KISS is best in my book.

Poll is up for review Multiple vote is ok KK

UNM

No rush. voting closes JUNE???

Brett H

on 1330156573:

:rofl: :-* I would have thought your Green Apple scale is all you would need Brett  :rofl: :-*

Dang-it... You are correct!!! Amend the poll please KK...  :rofl:

ash

Interesting! Roast depths to me seem to be the end result - am I just stating the obvious here? Time up to first crack (IMO at least) are dependant on your local environment. Different roast depth/grades/levels etc would be the result of local conditions and personal preference. For example, I tend to prefer a roast cut short of 2nd crack but around 3-4:30 post first crack. This can mean that I end up with a roast around CS9-11 or American to Full City depending on the bean. But both scales are based off colour of the resulting roasted bean. In my experimentation some beans I have roasted have been quite slow to where I would normally drop and have consequently been lighter in colour than what I am used to. Still tasted good though. I suppose what I am getting at is, do you want a scale that is colour based, or time based? Time based is dependant on everyones location and local environment. Colour based can be influenced by roasting preferences/styles/accidents (hopefully good tasting ones). please excuse the rambling of an over caffienated mind.... :coffee: :coffee2:

Koffee_Kosmo

on 1330173588:

No rush. voting closes JUNE???

I gave it 100 days

on 1330174343:

Dang-it... You are correct!!! Amend the poll please KK...  :rofl:

Green Apple Scale added

FreshCoffee2

I like what youve suggested KK. Colour coding without the element of time is meaningless. We both roast to colour X but I do it in 20 minutes and you do it in 10.....but hey we achieved our chosen colour! Is the coffee the same?    :D Also please note this teensy "aside" for those looking for a little more academic meat here......trying to run "precise" colour code specs using the BEANS is inaccurate and is another reason why I dont like those colour scales. They only account for the outside colour of the coffee, and you all know how difficult it can be to judge the hue on the outside of beans depending on different lighting conditions, inconsistencies in the bean colour due to base grade roasting processes etc............. let alone that the inside and outside of the beans roast to different stages depending on the amount of convective (inside) and conductive (outside the bean) roasting happenening in any particular roasting apparatus. The Agtron scale takes this into account by referring to the colour of grinds rather than the beans, and you dont roast to the exact colour of the chip because it will differ when the coffee is subsequently ground. As I said, a bit of academics for you. I should really leave this discussion now because your roasting methods are different to mine and I also am not a roasting scientist only a coffee roaster with knowledge borne of experience in my own business. I would however like to see any scale that you decide to adopt is relatively simple. It seems to me that colour of beans VS time of roast (or to each crack and the unload temp) should do well enough for enthusiastic home roasting.    

RichardM

Colour means nearly nothing to me when roasting, thus I never use it for myself. I define my roasts by time, and more importantly, just break it down to: Start of first crack (+x minutes) End of first crack (+x minutes) Start of second crack (+ x seconds) End of second crack Caught fire This is close enough to the "popular" vote at the top (which I did select). For example, the colour of a roast I've done for cold brew is almost irrelevant, as each bean at just on first crack varies greatly, but the fact that it's hitting first crack is the most important factor for taste for that particular brew. For dedicated espresso roasts, sure, colour (and sheen) may be very important, but then you are still only aiming for within a few shades of brown, and I would think that whether it's passed through that second crack stage would be more important. To me it's like popcorn - Popped or not popped...but in this case, it pops twice :D

mycuppa

Unfortunately, I can't add a whole lot to this discussion as both color and time don't mean a whole lot to me. Time is partially interesting, particularly when confronted with a new bean or a new roasting challenge. Color is what I look for when cupping and evaluation, but as A. has noted, we are more interested in the hues of the grounds.  Final temp and shape of Bean Temp and Air Temp curves are what I use, but I understand that home roasters don't have access to these types of real-time tools (in fact, some commercial roasters don't either - relying on current time, temp and sight only). Another aspect about commercial roasters is that if your roaster was well designed, it will be less affected by environment variables. Yes, it's damn hot down here in Melbourne this weekend, but my batch times are within a few seconds of spec. which tells me that it does not matter if it's a cold or a hot day (except my body is complaining.........loudly :'().

FreshCoffee2

Hehehe I remember standing next to my early Probat some years ago in February roasting coffee. The thermometer I used to keep next to the roaster (and where I was standing), read 52 degrees C. That was the ambient air temp next to the roaster, at the absolute height of the summer heat wave. But it wasnt that bad to work in.....It was dry instead of humid heat  ;D  Since the drought broke last year and we keep getting regular rain the whole scenario has changed as there is a lot more humidity in the air...so not so pleasant now when the temperature rises. I keep snapshots of bean and air temp curves from my roasting plant pooder screen in my phone and on me at all times so I can refer to them even when I am not roasting. So its not just me then  :laugh: Yeah ambient temperature doesnt affect my current roasting plant in any significant way either. If you can drag yourself away from Melbourne J you should visit 

mycuppa

on 1330220466:

Hehehe I remember standing next to my early Probat some years ago in February roasting coffee. The thermometer I used to keep next to the roaster (and where I was standing), read 52 degrees C. That was the ambient air temp next to the roaster, at the absolute height of the summer heat wave. But it wasnt that bad to work in.....It was dry instead of humid heat  ;D Yeah ambient temperature doesnt affect my current roasting plant in any significant way either. If you can drag yourself away from Melbourne J you should visit 

Yes A. I've endured about a dozen 50+ ambient days in the last 6 weeks - this year seems particularly bad with heaps of mid-30's days in a row. Even with the big cooler on it's just plain awful. Body somehow gets used to it once you are up and running for an hour or so, but it's hard to start mentally.....akin to visiting the dentist for a root canal......these days I put it off till midnight if I can. Might pop in for a visit in a few months to steal some secrets.......er, sorry, to discuss coffee stuff.

shape_shifter

Very interesting discussion now that the 'big boys' have stepped in I picked the first option, in saying that I also now have something else to add into my photos of roasts, what the grind looks like, thanks A & J for that  :thumb:

mycuppa

No probs SS. wrt the grounds......an example was the nice Kenyan you sent me in the bean swap a couple of months ago. Outside appearance was "monk brown" ground appearance was a few shades lighter and thus it was quite bright and acidic - but still delightful !

UNM

I see the light/medium/dark  thing catching on over at CS too... :angel: :coffee2:

shape_shifter

:rofl: UNM we may as well try and sneak it in everywhere we can Now in terms of what I've learnt today: http://nic.steve-tek.com/?p=446

UNM

on 1330210011:

I should really leave this discussion now because your roasting methods are different to mine and I also am not a roasting scientist only a coffee roaster with knowledge borne of experience in my own business. I would however like to see any scale that you decide to adopt is relatively simple. It seems to me that colour of beans VS time of roast (or to each crack and the unload temp) should do well enough for enthusiastic home roasting.  

Hope you do contribute some more to the thread. Many (most?) of us look forward to your posts. I agree with simple, yet including enough info for those that like detail (i.e. pedants like me) to be satisfied.

on 1330213520:

Final temp and shape of Bean Temp and Air Temp curves are what I use, but I understand that home roasters don't have access to these types of real-time tools (in fact, some commercial roasters don't either - relying on current time, temp and sight only).

Many of us here do have capability to log bean and environment temp data. I sometimes post them if it seems like it might be worth discussion, or I am looking for input from those that read such things for enjoyment. Of course such curves are only directly relevant to one specific roasting setup, but with suitable data markers for first/second crack and environment temp it is possible to make SOME inferences between different equipment (or so I believe at this point in time). Wonder how many of us do actually have data logging capability, maybe another thread is needed.