Winter issue feedback

JM

The review of domestic espresso machines can't go without comment...

Why was the Krups Nespresso included in a review of ESPRESSO machines? Using stale ground coffee violates the very concept of using freshly ground beans as the basis of a quality espresso. I'm not saying this is a bad machine, it will suit some people - but without freshly ground coffee, it's not an Espresso IMO.

I guess this machine was included because the review section has been sponsored by Domayne - and that raises the thought that the machine was included at their insistence because they sell it - hmmm.

Sound like a coffee snob? Not intending too - and I am well aware the magazine is aimed at the average consumer seeking more information, so you might argue the Nespresso fits. But if so, then I would have given it a review with a big fat zero for the issue with the inability to use coffee beans that are ground to order (I think a similar Phillips pod system has an accessory to allow you to bypass the stale pods and use your own coffee, but not this one? Maybe someone can fill in the details on that?)

admin

Hi there - firstly, thanks for the feedback - we welcome any sort of feedback, good or bad. However, have to say i don't agree at all the the Nespresso shouldn't have been included. Under what grounds (if you'll excuse the pun)? You don't like it? Well, as it happens, neither do we. However, can't say that I agree on your definition that it isn't an espresso machine - basically, it pushes hot water through ground coffee, under pressure - by most reckonings, it qualifies. The other fact is that thousands of people are looking at this machine, and many (fortunately or unfortunately), are buying it. However, on the taste/freshness side, I agree absolutely and you'll notice that we gave it the lowest score on the taste rating, and went out of our way to mention our concern with staleness characteristics. In fact, we did so in the strongest way we could without seeming unprofessional and basically slagging off the machine. So I have to disagree with you completely. There are plenty of things we'd like to have done better about the review, but excluding the Nespresso was not one of them. In fact contrary to what you say, we've actually done the public a service, by (apart from looks) warning them how bad it is! -A

JM

Point noted, it probably was useful to guide people away from it with such a review and rating. Fair comment. Still say it's not espresso though - like you said it's a "pusher of hot water under pressure through ground coffee." Until more people accept that espresso definitions need to include the words "freshly ground" then I'm going to argue it's not worthy of the term "espresso." 🙂

admin

Sorry JM, but have to disagree with you again. To my understanding that is pretty much the commonly accepted definition of espresso coffee. The fact that 80-90% of consumers (& probably a similar percentage of cafes) don't understand the critical importance of freshness again, is a different matter, and this is where I have to concur - there's almost no-one who cares more about the freshness factor than us, and we consider it almost a 'mission' to try and get the word out. However, in terms of definitions, unfortunately, there's usually very little said of freshness - the only 'semi-official' body that broaches the topic (that we know of) is the SCAA, where in their definition of specialty coffee (not 'espresso' per se) they say: "In roasted coffee, most agree that freshness is a part of the definition for specialty. If the coffee is not highly aromatic then it no longer deserves to be called 'specialty.'" So as far as I know, under the commonly accepted definitions, freshness (unfortunately) doesn't appear to be a factor. Again, would love to know that this is not the case and happy to stand corrected on this - comments anyone? -A

FreshCoffee2

Afraid I am sitting on the park bench with you on this one admin. No matter how murderous (to my/your taste buds) the nespresso (or any other) pod system is, it is still producing coffee by the espresso method. You can produce just as murderous a cup of espresso with real coffee beans, as you can with the pod system...it's all espresso, albeit bad tasting espresso. Look at it another way....you can murder the BEST fresh roast coffee beans, OR you can brew rubbish coffee beans really well....it's still all espresso.....just look at the southern italians who roast & blend blends made up predominantly (on average), of somewhere between 85 to 100% of the worst possible tasting robusta, burned to black oily charcoal in the roasting machine. They then brew it into an espresso, with espresso brewing equipment ( and say to you..."isn't that great espresso?"). Is this any different to brewing stale coffee pods well (or badly) with an espresso machine? Regardz, FC.

Reschsmooth

I just finished reading 'The Book of Coffee' by Francesco & Riccardo Illy (who you may argue know a bit about coffee and espresso) and they talk at some length about the new* pod system which allows a number of the variables to be removed when preparing 'espress'. As mentioned above, the definition of espresso relates to the process (ie, water under pressure passing through ground coffee) rather than the ingredients (eg, competent operator, tamped coffee, freshly ground coffee, etc). The issue raised is 'what makes a good espress?'. This would be where the issue of freshness and the other variables come into play. Having said that, I am just a home bar easter who has a passing interest in coffee/espresso.

admin

Hi guys - just as a footnote to this one - read today that the dreaded Nespresso are opening a retail store in Sydney's King St, so that customers can try before they buy. I'd like to think that the regular coffee-drinking public are educated enough to know when they're trying something that's not good, however I doubt that is the case. Maybe as real coffee lovers, forum members should get together and create a picket line, so that not too many consumers will get sucked into parting with their $$! -A :-/

mattyj

[quote]Maybe as real coffee lovers, forum members should get together and create a picket line, so that not too many consumers will get sucked into parting with their $$! -A

Reschsmooth

Admin, I have walked past the King Street store, and they have, expectedly, decked it out to look pretty flash. As we know, most people consider their lahtays to be as much about image as it is about a drink. When you look at all those cafe's who have the dark wood interiors, soft furnishings, array of 'intellectual' magazines available, etc, but crap coffee, people get sucked in. P

FreshCoffee2

Yeah Parick this is the trouble with what "coffee" has turned into in some quarters...it is so image based. But like all good ausies (some of whom have a genuine rather than image only based interest in coffee) I drive a tractor or weekends, have several motorcycles that I love to restore & ride, get my hands dirty, roast coffee, live and breathe my coffee business, have a family / children with all the usual committments, like watching videos and am quite a regular bloke.....I have no "intellectual" magazines in my collection of coffee magazines on the table in the showroom, and thankfully, I dont ever profess to be "serious about coffee". There must be something wrong ;D Regardz, FC.

JM

I just finished reading 'The Book of Coffee' by Francesco & Riccardo Illy (who you may argue know a bit about coffee and espresso) ... As mentioned above, the definition of espresso relates to the process (ie, water under pressure passing through ground coffee) rather than the ingredients (eg, competent operator, tamped coffee, freshly ground coffee, etc).

As I understand it, Illy's reseach is un-matched. They've forgotten more than we might ever know, but they also have a vested interest in not mentioning freshness becuase the sell roasted coffee that may be months old (or worse) by the time you drink it. Open a tin of Illy and the first cup or three are fine thanks to the nitrogen packed with it. After that, it shows it's age very quickly. Illy know this, since they are the research experts. Maybe some coffee pods have nitorgen to help keep the contents fresh - that would be cool - but I doubt it somehow. So, I'd still argue the definition of espresso needs the word "freshly ground" in there if it's to be truly made espressly for you...