Ponte Vecchio Lusso - advice please?

Dry_bean

Just scanned quickly through part of this thread, seems since I was last around a system of rating coffee has been introduced, it seems quite precise, i.e. 8.7/10, perhaps someone can give me an explanation of the rating system or direct me to a thread explaining it :question: DB. 🙂 PS Just did an edit without problem.

Brett_H

Milk is Maleny Dairy and at most other times of the year it's a b!tch to microfoam but there's something about summer! It tastes so good at all times of the year but the foam was spot-on and has been for the last week !!

Moon

Welcome back Dry bean The ratings go like this <7.0/10 - ask for your money back if you purchased one of these in a Cafe .. you paid for coffee. 7.5/10 - is a sinker. You might drink it .. but only if there's nothing else around, and that includes tea. 8.0/10 - ok, drinkable but a bit of a Claytons coffee .. it's hot and that's about it. 8.5/10 - an enjoyable coffee. About as good as it gets from a Cafe in one of those multi-level Shopping Centres. There's lots worse. 8.9/10 - Just falls short of being very good .. which starts at a 9.0/10 9.0/10 - Very good .. but noticeably lacking in what it takes to make the 'elite' class. 9.1/10 - quality coffee .. only lacking the X-factor to join the elite 9.15/10 - Close .. but no cigar 9.2/10 - 'elite' .. now we're talking. Has the X-factor and big on 'yummy' Happy to drink this quality every day. 9.3/10 - Exceptional. The Crem de la crem. Made the top shelf category. 9.4/10 - Stunning. Only a few make it this far .. and can fluctuate from 9.2 .. to 9.4 on a good day - when the stars align. 9.5/10 - This score is for the best of the best .. only 1 bean has reached this height so far (adjusted) These ratings are what I am able to achieve with various blends and single origins when using my Compak K3 Touch grinder and Ponte Vecchio Lusso lever machine. Others using their own methods and equipment .. are likely to get a different result .. using their own rating system. I tend to be overly generous at the lower end .. e.g. an 8/10 should be good coffee, but I've rated it as only just drinkable. I try not to be too harsh .. as it is only what I am able to produce .. and others may easily get a much better result in the cup when using the same batch of beans. Coffees that rate in the 9s .. is where the real action and enjoyment is. :coffee2:

Kevohere

Brett H wrote:

9.2... You poor fellow 😉 MyCuppa Amazon roasted Nov 16 92degC on the DB (x2 one for the wife) A measly 9.6 for him but for/from her... 9.8!!! The comment :"I don't think a coffee could get much better, could it?' Didn't I marry well!!

How did you and your wife have the Amazon Brett? Espresso, LB, FW, etc. That's some serious scoring levels and as Moon says; "we need to leave some head room....." :thumb: But, that's what it' all about, enjoying our coffees, knowing/tasting that slight difference in the cup and tweaking this and that in chasing that (elusive?) "10" Great to hear you and your are really enjoying you coffee time. My partner took a little time adjusting to the Strega and was coming along very nicely until I put the BNZ alongside a few weeks ago. That "unsureness" soon diminished and she's now pulling some mean shots for our morning long blacks.

Dry_bean

Moon wrote:

Welcome back Dry bean The ratings go like this <7.0/10 - ask for your money back if you purchased one of these in a Cafe .. you paid for coffee. 7.5/10 - is a sinker. You might drink it .. but only if there's nothing else around, and that includes tea. 8.0/10 - ok, drinkable but a bit of a Claytons coffee .. it's hot and that's about it. 8.5/10 - an enjoyable coffee. About as good as it gets from a Cafe in one of those multi-level Shopping Centres. There's lots worse. 8.9/10 - Just falls short of being very good .. which starts at a 9.0/10 9.0/10 - Very good .. but noticeably lacking in what it takes to make the 'elite' class. 9.1/10 - quality coffee .. only lacking the X-factor to join the elite 9.15/10 - Close .. but no cigar 9.2/10 - 'elite' .. now we're talking. Has the X-factor and big on 'yummy' Happy to drink this quality every day. 9.3/10 - Exceptional. The Crem de la crem. Made the top shelf category. 9.4/10 - Stunning. Only a few make it this far .. and can fluctuate from 9.2 .. to 9.4 on a good day - when the stars align. 9.5/10 - This score is for the best of the best .. only 1 bean has reached this height so far (adjusted) These ratings are what I am able to achieve with various blends and single origins when using my Compak K3 Touch grinder and Ponte Vecchio Lusso lever machine. Others using their own methods and equipment .. are likely to get a different result .. using their own rating system. I tend to be overly generous at the lower end .. e.g. an 8/10 should be good coffee, but I've rated it as only just drinkable. I try not to be too harsh .. as it is only what I am able to produce .. and others may easily get a much better result in the cup when using the same batch of beans. Coffees that rate in the 9s .. is where the real action and enjoyment is. :coffee2:

Thanks Moon, much appreciated. Never really thought much about rating shots in this way, my criteria were pretty much, great approaching the ever elusive god shot, very drinkable as I would rate shots from 90% of cafe's in SA nowadays (yep the situation has changed remarkably in the past few years) average speaks for its self and swill, you still get em some times, nowadays I will complain if a coffee is undrinkable, most respond well and will make another, though if they had one shot and got it wrong chances are they will make another pretty much the same. 🙂 PS Rating your own shots must be a little like talking about your kids, perfect in your eyes, from the viewpoint of others, perhaps not so much. :🙂

Brett_H

Perhaps DB has articulated my fear... Rating ones own coffees may reveal narcissistic tendencies. The Amazon was as Flat whites and I'm sad to say for all and sundry today's milk fell well short of the 9s. When I offered to remake my wife's codffee as it had sat a while and the listless foam become a soggy reminder of its former self... She gulped, said no, this is great and went back to her iPad. Mine too tasted wonderful but the milk... Oh the milk (new container, same brand both unhomogonised). The Santosa my wife handed back, said sour, and she was right. Up goes the PID for that one. Scores in the 9's and even high 9's are completely possible, and in fact given the quality of machinery attached to most signatures here really, inexcusable if it's not happening. Barista courses are everywhere (there's one happening at my workplace next week!!!!) and knowledge abundant and accessible. That coupled with the fact the home barista is operating with equipment equivalent to a high-end fit out but without the volume and stress.... and only really one customer to please....

Moon

Dry bean. wrote:

PS Rating your own shots must be a little like talking about your kids, perfect in your eyes, from the viewpoint of others, perhaps not so much. :🙂

Nah .. no problem airing my deficiencies on this forum. Being a relative n00b amongst those with many years of experience with way more expensive equipment than I have .. the worst way I could go is say I'm consistently making myself 9.8/10 Godshots. In fact .. some believe I should be getting higher ratings than what I am giving myself. I try to Keepi it real .. inconsistency is what I'm best at .. although I do admit .. the variation usually lands within the range of 8.7/10 up to 9.2/10. .. meaning I most often end up with a nice coffee with a few extremely good ones on occasions .. so no complaints here. This coffee journey is warts and all.. and besides, nobody would believe me if the vast majority were 9.5/10 .. as even some of the veterans can have trouble dialling in their beans .. and achieve consistent high quality shots. I have bean told results are unpredictable and this keeps you on your toes. In my case .. it's often up one day .. down the next.. and I'm still discovering ways to improve the quality and consistency as I move forward. They say you need to experience pain to appreciate pleasure .. and it's much the same with coffee. You need to make and drink the duds .. to be able to WOW yourself when you make a cracker. If you made Godshots every time .. it would become the 'norm' and it would get boring. I know I need to try different beans .. blends and single origins which provides me with variable results in the cup.. which is the way I prefer it, as it refreshes my taste buds so that they don't get used to the same flavours and become lazy. I drink latte ... and if I were to guess an average rating for my coffees over the last 6 months - I'd say it would be 9.14/10

Moon

My Sister has gone on a trip to Vietnam .. and have come back from my first of 6 overnight stays to look after her pets. She has a Sunbeam 6910 I think .. those $600 twin boiler jobs .. that seem to last 5 years of little use before blowing a boiler. Anyway, I have to go over to the Shopping Centre to my favourite Cafe for my morning fix .. a Jumbo latte for $4.70 3 shots go into these .. and it it this Cafe where I set the standard of 8.5/10 being the best it gets in a Shopping Centre Cafe. The owner had 2 female Baristas .. both made good coffee using a Premium Lavazza blend. Yeah .. lol Lavazza :🙂 Both could make an 8.5/10 .. which was very tasty. The new owner lost both of them .. and replaced them with a bloke .. quality immediately dropped. Now the owner is the Barista .. and made me a triple shot Jumbo this morning.. It got a rating of .. wait for it ----> 7.9/10 I told him it was nice to be polite .. only I won't be going back. These Turkeys think making a quality coffee is easy .. and must think .. hmm? .. I can save money if I start making them myself. Yeah right d00d .. bean losing customers lately? (Won't) see you later. Glad to be home .. and about to make myself a decent coffee. ;D

Brett_H

9.14 as an average is :thumb:

Dry_bean

I'm still wondering just how the score is arrived at/constructed, are points allotted for viscosity, crema, mouth feel, shot time etc, Then it comes to taste! surely a subjective assessment, all beans are different, what suits one person may taste like crap to another, I dislike the earthy taste of most beans from SE Asia whilst others rate them very highly. So, if the taste is not too your liking, do you mark it down dramatically, when to others it may be a god shot. Another aspect I wonder about is the point system being used, seems very precise i.e. 8.7/10, a very subjective evaluation for what really should be an objective evaluation. Another point I seriously wonder about is rating your own creations without bias, conscious or subconscious creeping in (sorry Moon) not meaning to doubt you, have done enough assessing and evaluating during my working life to understand that evaluating your own efforts seldom leads to an accurate conclusion, independent audits in all aspects of industry are highly desirable. Just my thoughts on the subject. 🙂

Moon

Blimey .. anyone care to weigh in here to explain to Dry bean what's bean going on in this thread? Nah .. I'll get back with an explanation of what's bean going on and how my rating system came to be.

mycuppa

Moony 'ol chap. Perhap what DB is referring to is that when we traditionally evaluate coffee, we take many aspects (or characteristics) into account, e.g. a coffee may have more body and therefore the score for the "body" component is rated separately to the score, say....for instance the sweetness, acidity, flavor, finish, etc. and on it goes. In other words, you break-down the various characteristics and score them individually, tally up the result and then provide an overall score. Here is the result for one of my raw coffees that has been evaluated by multiple Q-graders (at the broker) - they arrived at a score of 86.5. They did not use espresso & milk to arrive at that score because they used a formal, structured (controlled) technique, e.g. traditional cupping used to grade coffees. Fragrance / Aroma 8 Aftertaste 8.25 Flavour 8.25 Acidity 8 Body 8 Balance 8 I can see what DB is saying and I tend to agree to some extent. Maybe (and I'm taking a shot in the dark here) the system you are using is reference-based, relying upon recall and comparative sampling (which may be tending towards a beta-binomial distribution), e.g. you know what is good and your reference point is marked up or down based upon a "set" of desirable attributes, which may be subject to change over time. I can understand your rankings and they are simple (easy) and conclusive I would encourage you to consider breaking your criteria down into the various sections like the example above as it will help you focus more keenly on that particular score - even if you average it out, etc. or come up with your own set of ratings and overall score system, etc. Keep going by all means......

Moon

mycuppa wrote:

Maybe (and I'm taking a shot in the dark here) the system you are using is reference-based, relying upon recall and comparative sampling (which may be tending towards a beta-binomial distribution), e.g. you know what is good and your reference point is marked up or down based upon a "set" of desirable attributes, which may be subject to change over time. I can understand your rankings and they are simple (easy) and conclusive

Thanks for that mycuppa - well said ... hmm .. 'beta-binomial distribution' .. impressive, I'll go with that. I like simple and uncomplicated :thumb: As I'd mentioned some time ago .. I would really need to do a training course to identify the different characteristics that you refer to .. with examples of each lined up so that I can taste them to compare the differences - as in this one has low acidity .. this medium and this one high acidity, so that I can identify it when tasting other coffees. Flavour, aftertaste and body are ok .. yet exactly what am I looking for in 'balance' in say a blend? I'm a little out of my league and wouldn't feel comfortable pretending that I know what I'm talking about compared to a trained and experienced professional grader or blender when it comes to 'balance' Heck .. I reckon I'm lucky to bluff my way through as it is The idea of rating a coffee probably started when in a Cafe .. I asked a friend ..'What do you think of the coffee?' and they'd reply 'nice' I'd wonder how 'nice' - and would ask for a rating out of 10 to get a more accurate idea of what they thought of the coffee. With my new equipment .. and starting this thread, I felt the most informative way of describing the coffees I was making was to give them a rating out of 10 .. along with tamp, dose, grind - rather than simply saying that I think this one is better than the last. I figured this would give those helping me a better understanding of where I was at.. so that they could throw in some tips about what I may be doing wrong .. or what I should try. Ratings also make it more interesting with the flops and successes .. the highs & lows. It has been more about getting the grind, dose, tamp, micro foam, pour and shot volume right. You are exactly right in this - ''e.g. you know what is good and your reference point is marked up or down based upon a "set" of desirable attributes, which may be subject to change over time'' It would seem that it is a natural progression to move on to educating my palate about the above characteristics, along with identifying what flavours are present - to assess which ones I like and which I don't .. so that I can look for these when trying other beans. On the other hand .. I do like the idea of keeping my ratings simple. I doubt whether the average Jane who I may be having a coffee with at the local Cafe would be particularly interested in the detail about the body or being asked whether she/he can detect the raspberry notes. I wonder how many readers of this thread are into it? Hey folks .. if you are .. sorry, you need to look elsewhere 😉 For now anyway. This thread is meant to be a light-hearted account of my personal coffee experience, and how I'm handling different beans on my equipment .. not a serious assessment of the beans used .. as there are many variables as you know that are affecting the outcome .. so ol' Moony doesn't want to be portraying himself as a serious Coffee Guru .. cause :lamp: I am clearly not. Besides, I doubt too many Coffee connoisseurs tune into this thread for anything other than a bit of a larf .. which is good. Who knows .. if I happen to make a cracker and rate it a 9.4/10 .. someone out there might look it up and order 500g to give it a try on their $200 Sunbeam and $150 DeLonghi grinder. <----- It doesn't seem all that long ago that I was there. Actually, this is the target audience - who would probably gain the most from reading the thread. Those who are thinking about an upgrade .. and considering a lever machine rather than go for say, a Silvia. It gives them an idea of what they will be going through with a heads-up about what they need to consider along their journey if they happen to get a PV Lusso .. or any other machine to start getting serious about making good quality coffee. When you start talking about acidity, balance, notes of melon etc .. you are leaving your average coffee punter behind who doesn't understand this stuff. Will I be moving on to discussing how much I enjoyed the higher acidity of the Ethiopian over the PNG .. to Brett? Possibly .. I'll mull over the idea. Are you up for it Brettmate? Maybe if I was seriously into becoming a Coffee critic for the local newspaper and travel the State I'd be getting into it .. hmm? There's an idea :lamp:

Dry_bean

Not trying to throw cold water on your project Moon, full marks for effort. From my view point (not a coffee professional, simply a very interested hobbyist) it seems to me an overly complex evaluation process for an amateur to use, i.e. allocating points out of 100, that is 1 to 10 with 1 point increments, however the scores below about 8 never seem to come into play. We can roast coffee and describe the roast quite accurately with a 10 point system, why not coffee in the cup? I can certainly see the logic in coffee professionals needing an accurate and precise evaluation scoring process, enabling like minded and similarly trained professionals word wide to be able to communicate and understand exactly what the other is tasting and describing, however scoring a cup of coffee out of 100 and virtually ignoring the first 80 on the scale seems a little odd.

derrilex

Welcome to crazy town :rofl: :stir

Moon

^^^ Who forgot to switch on the forum filter for Mad Cow? >😃 In other coffee news.. Bought a small plunger today seeing I couldn't find either of the two I have packed away somewhere. Brett and C-man will be happy that I'll be giving this style of coffee making a try. I finally get to use my Spong No 4 hand grinder that I paid $150 for. I think they rated their plunger coffee about a 9/10 Have to take a punt on the grind setting for starters and see how it goes. Exciting times. :thumb: * Went to see 'Interstellar' - great movie. :thumb:

Moon

Ok .. I gave the plunger a go .. and used the Major Tom bean blend that I'm currently using for my lattes. I adjusted the Spong hand grinder to a coarser grind and used 2 scoops of beans - then ground them and filled up the 2 cup plunger with boiling water that I left to go off the boil for 2 minutes. Result - I didn't like it at all Rating - 7.7/10 .. where 7.5 is a sinker. Question: :question: On a scale of 0-10 .. where I use say 9 for an espresso shot for my lattes .. what range of grind should I be trying for the plunger?

Brett_H

I don't know know... Moony scale 1.0 was simple, a don of the cap to the newbie blog owner. 10 is perfection and everything below a qualitative guestimate all in good fun. Seriously, we are rating flat whites. I rate soft serve ice creams the same way now... with the kids... who are like almost in high school... You know so you are...!! It's seriously kind of like when I get paid to adjudicate music competitions only, I get paid a fortune for those 😛 :stir Also, for those I require intense audtioning, a truck load of professional experience and an appropriate rubric! This is fun. Plunger is out of 10 also Moony. I love plunger...try harder!

Kevohere

Most people would "sink" their first espresso on a new machine. No difference Moon, do as you dialed in your PV, perseverance, a tweak here and there and you'll be hitting 9s before you know it. Just another journey mate. ;D

Dry_bean

OK, I'm a little slow on the uptake, the penny started to drop after the post by Derrilex, think I get the picture now, here was I thinking someone was trying to reinvent the wheel. :-[ Sooo, I'm doing penance at the moment, the over cooked roast I referred in another thread! it really is pretty bad, however, as a punishment to myself I've vowed to consume every last bean, all 600 plus grams of the stuff :pan will not roast again until I'm down to the dregs of it, to this point have used about 25%. To keep the thread on track, how would I rate this stuff on the Crema atomic scale, reckon it would scrape in at about 5.25/10 yep it's that bad, that'll teach me to pay attention to the job at hand. :doh:

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