Fine food and crap coffee - a perfect match ?

beanflying

;D Oops. We have a couple of hatted restaurants in town and they have in the last few months changed to the kwality Vittoria option and now proudly display the 'free' windbreaks plastered with a companies logo other than their own all over them not a good look if your trying to promote upmarket dining IMO. Food is still excellent but I wouldn't touch the coffee. 😛 Best screaming of the milk at a restaurant was when ACog and family where down on holiday. We were at over 15m away and the milk was being murdered. Just so tempting to have a word to the waitress who was committing the act.

RichardM

I went to a cafe yesterday for breakfast. They've changed from MAP to Campos since being bought out two weeks ago. The owner was training a girl to make the coffees, and kept bringing me free ones whileever I could keep giving feedback and ordering different coffees for training of his new coffee making staff. Chatting with the owner, he was saying that if they got the coffee wrong, they knew they wouldn't survive. This place does sandwiches, breakfasts, and dinners all under $20 per head - so why can't up market places get it right??????

mycuppa

Yes, that brand Australian coffee company has as their strategy to tie up high-end restaurants so that similar coffee that is sold on Supermarket shelves is also packaged into slightly different bags for restaurants. A marketing gig designed to give credibility to the supermarket coffee - perhaps. I think for many restaurants, it's more a case of their Providore/Supplier also bundling the coffee and perhaps a bit of the old "restaurants not having adequate volume to fit into the traditional FOL coffee equipment model". Sometimes it can be that coffee companies may know only too well that high staff turnover in restaurants will cause a training and skills nightmare resulting in potential inconsistency and brand risk - thus giving them a bit of a wide berth in favor of cafes that treat their coffee more seriously as in RM's case.

littleroundman

How is the average restaurant owner and/or worker going to find a "good" coffee ?? How many "average punters" even know such a thing exists ?? It's all too easy from the "inside" of coffee lovers' forums to believe it's "just' a matter of.................... But, thinking about it objectively, just how much time, effort and difficulty would be faced by a restaurant owner with little or no experience in specialty coffee to introduce it to his/her establishment ? ESPECIALLY when God-knows-what percentage of consumers think that what is served in their local McDonalds/Gloria Jeans/cafe IS "good coffee" Without any numbers to back up my theory, I still wouldn't mind betting more than 95% of consumers have ever experienced anything BUT what those on coffee forums would consider undrinkable.

WotB

Why don't great restaurants serve great quality produce (coffee) in a respectful way (pourover)? You don't need a lot of training, and the results in the cup would go leaps and bounds to finish off an impeccable meal. It really disgusts me as a chef that an item of produce is treated with such a lack of care. Would you take the freshest fish and massacre it with a serrated steak knife?

mycuppa

littleroundman wrote:

How is the average restaurant owner and/or worker going to find a "good" coffee ??

The point I'm trying to make here is the over-the-top elaborate efforts by the restaurant in sourcing rare produce, complete with highly descriptive traceability...................................yet with over 400 coffee companies in Australia you would think it's not too hard to find something a little fresher than beans that have traveled on a slow boat from Europe and stored in a warehouse. Quality, fresh roasted coffee is abundantly available in Australia and there are 4 specialty coffee roasteries within 30km of this restaurant which is quite amazing given it's way out of the place.

littleroundman wrote:

Without any numbers to back up my theory, I still wouldn't mind betting more than 95% of consumers have ever experienced anything BUT what those on coffee forums would consider undrinkable.

I'm not referring to consumers - I'm talking about the people who make these decisions to use a product that does not fit, or seems so ridiculously out of place with everything else the they stand for or what they are trying so desperately hard to achieve. Chefs and high-end restaurant owners definitely know the difference in taste between an average coffee and a great coffee the same way they know the difference between a quality piece of Angus beef versus a supermarket rump on special for $8.99 a kilo. It's their job to know and understand everything they work with - right down to the lowest levels of what olive oil, salt and pepper they use. When developing a new blend I will always give samples to 3 chefs I know to solicit their feedback as I highly value their judgement and experience.

shape_shifter

WotB wrote:

Why don't great restaurants serve great quality produce (coffee) in a respectful way (pourover)? You don't need a lot of training, and the results in the cup would go leaps and bounds to finish off an impeccable meal. It really disgusts me as a chef that an item of produce is treated with such a lack of care. Would you take the freshest fish and massacre it with a serrated steak knife?

That's the point though WotB isn't it, majority of people DON'T see coffee as a fresh food. I often put "Coffee is fresh food" as my FB status but I don't think people get it.

mycuppa

shape_shifter wrote:

That's the point though WotB isn't it, majority of people DON'T see coffee as a fresh food. I often put "Coffee is fresh food" as my FB status but I don't think people get it.

It sure is Nic.........I often have people calling me trying to get a rock bottom price on bulk orders of beans for their home - 8, 10 or 12kg at a time. I stay quiet until they are finished talking and then ask a simple question........"how much coffee do you use in a week ?" - most replies are around 250g per week and then follow it up with "why are you buying 6 or 8 months worth of coffee in one purchase" and it's generally to save money. When I tell them coffee is a fresh food and despite packaging it will degrade..........most are very thankful for sharing some insights on how coffee lasts. We keep the same line.........treat your coffee like you treat your fruit and vegetables.

RichardM

littleroundman wrote:

How is the average restaurant owner and/or worker going to find a "good" coffee ?? How many "average punters" even know such a thing exists ?? It's all too easy from the "inside" of coffee lovers' forums to believe it's "just' a matter of.................... But, thinking about it objectively, just how much time, effort and difficulty would be faced by a restaurant owner with little or no experience in specialty coffee to introduce it to his/her establishment ? ESPECIALLY when God-knows-what percentage of consumers think that what is served in their local McDonalds/Gloria Jeans/cafe IS "good coffee" Without any numbers to back up my theory, I still wouldn't mind betting more than 95% of consumers have ever experienced anything BUT what those on coffee forums would consider undrinkable.

While I agree with most of what you say, the idea of a fine dining restaurant (I assume we are all taking about places where a dinner for two would not be under $200), is to experience the best of everything. Sure, a lot of people think a Sara Lee apple pie is nice, but if you ordered apple pie at one of these places and got that, it would be insulting. The same goes for coffee. I personally think a place that promotes fine dining and fresh food could get away with charging $8/cup of coffee without anyone batting an eyelid, AS LONG AS IT WAS GOOD. Restaurants charge over twice what you can get a bottle of wine for at a bottle shop, because they have selected it, can advise what food it goes with etc (theoretically). Coffee shouldn't be any different. I'm not asking for a coffee degustation with matching food - just agree with Jeff that they should be celebrating and respecting food across the board. After all, you wouldn't drink Passion Pop with your $55 steak. For me, though, coffee snobbery is simply an extension of my food snobbery, and I'd expect those with a passion for food to progress in the same way, or go work in their local RSL serving $10 roast of the day.

Koffee_Kosmo

I personally have tea at restaurants if offered or just plain water The restaurant industry is a high turnover of staff industry some last a couple of hours some 6 months some are just doing it for pocket money while at uni You can read it as not experienced The owners try to dumb the process down to eliminate complete disaster They do this by introducing volumetric machines, this is to accommodate any staff member present or future. The owner is thinking ??? what can go wrong with pressing a button Well tell that to MacDonalds :-\ (see latest TV campaign) You must remember that the head chef and kitchen staff are busy cooking, and the coffee is left to the wait staff for the majority of the time Assuming that they know there stuff with regards to the best and freshest produce Not choosing a fresh bean supplier has me baffled, as it feels like penny pinching KK

mycuppa

Koffee Kosmo wrote:

Not choosing a fresh bean supplier has me baffled, as it feels like penny pinching KK

Exactly - it defies logic. Having dealt with a few restaurant owners, one common theme was their belief that the customer is captive whilst they have their bums on the seat - thinking they will not de-camp and go somewhere else for coffee. Unfortunately it's a bad example - the other case is they have excuses about worrying too much about the food. Obviously, there is a direct relationship between the distance of the restaurant from competitive cafes and the quality of their coffee. I wait for the day when foodie critics (or reviewers) develop their education to the level they can seriously consider the complete dining experience rather than cosmetic fitout or whether they waited 55 mins between entree and main instead of the standard 25-45 mins, or whether the staff "appeared" rushed. It's the only way to get attention - taken to task about coffee quality in a $200 dinner for 2.

UNM

Interesting stuff indeed. From watching the current crop of foodie shows on TV, fine restaurants DO care about the type of salt and pepper used, so I would have expected they would also care to a similar level about the coffee. The wait staff in fine dining establishments are generally of a far higher level than in fast food or casual dining and should be able to handle requests for info about the coffee. I don't normally eat out at fine dining establishments, but we went out for dinner at Flower Drum once and I was most impressed by the front of house staff. Honestly worth the premium for that level of service. I'd be a bit concerned about the quality of the restaurant if they wax lyrical about beef that is grain fed for part of the year and pasture fed the rest. Generally I'd prefer my beasts to be pasture fed, but a mix suggests they can't make up their mind, or are simply using lowest cost option - but that's drifting somewhat off topic.

RichardM

UNM wrote:

Interesting stuff indeed. From watching the current crop of foodie shows on TV, fine restaurants DO care about the type of salt and pepper used, so I would have expected they would also care to a similar level about the coffee. The wait staff in fine dining establishments are generally of a far higher level than in fast food or casual dining and should be able to handle requests for info about the coffee. I don't normally eat out at fine dining establishments, but we went out for dinner at Flower Drum once and I was most impressed by the front of house staff. Honestly worth the premium for that level of service. I'd be a bit concerned about the quality of the restaurant if they wax lyrical about beef that is grain fed for part of the year and pasture fed the rest. Generally I'd prefer my beasts to be pasture fed, but a mix suggests they can't make up their mind, or are simply using lowest cost option - but that's drifting somewhat off topic.

I personally prefer to know how long the meat has aged for, but don't mind a grain/pasture mix (especially in areas where the pasture is of a much lower quality for a portion of the year), so the grain is merely a supplement. I generally eat at fine dining places once or twice a year, and I've had fantastic experiences, and fairly average ones (the most memorably average was a high tea we had at Raffles in Singapore - biggest ripoff ever for terrible service). To be honest though, I haven't had memorable coffee at any of them 🙁 (look, I brought it back on topic 😛 )

Brett_H

I love this thread because it is such a simple problem to fix (love the idea of a pour over), forget espresso and go plungers, a grinder and some local fresh browns. Why is this so hard to understand? Darn it, have four fresh SO's on hand as an accompaniment to the wine list and charge $6 for a single plunger. Then, people like us would stay for the coffee and our partners would finally get to eat the dessert trolley!!! How is it that a restaurant's executive chef will not allow the apprentices to handle the truffles, has a fit of the vapors when the Barra is too large to be sweet yet allows the final taste on the diner's palate to be a stale ashy bitter experience prepared by a haphazardly trained waiter? SS, you've nailed it: coffee is fresh produce! Why is this such a foreign concept?

RichardM

Koffee Kosmo wrote:

Taking it off topic just for now as all this talk about steak is giving me ideas I have it on good authority that the best steak in Australia is in Melbourne At a place called Rockpool As a surprise I may take my wife there my wife there on our 30th wedding anniversary if it is true KK

Astoundingly the best steak I've ever eaten (other than those prepared at home) was from the Buderim Tavern!

Koffee_Kosmo

RichardM wrote:

Astoundingly the best steak I've ever eaten (other than those prepared at home) was from the Buderim Tavern!

Thanks Richard I have started a new thread to search for the best steak It could also be used as a state by state guide KK

Lacehim

I just drink their beer! Seriously though I agree mycuppa but next time you take the mrs out, put a bag of beans in your pocket and get a sale at the same time. Half these people don't know, or are happy getting a free machine and grinder I suppose. Maybe if you made them a coffee with your beans they might realise that there restaurant us missing out. And there customers too. Im still struggling to convert my mate who keeps buying his coffee from Coles!!! At least he has planted a coffee tree I suppose.

beanflying

Hot off the Age good food guide awards tonight the result you have all been waiting four. Proudly sponsored by Vittoria (No I am not kidding :🙂 ) and the winner of best "Coffee Restaurant of the Year": Attica, Ripponlea. .......... Must be 10-20% coffee and the rest in food???

FreshCoffee2

Just a random comment from the sidelines. I have been in coffee all my life and profess to know nothing about the profession of being a chef.....just because I can boil and egg and cook pasta doesnt mean I advertise that ....."I know food" because frankly, I dont. Funny how people from outside my own profession, profess (very often quite "loudly")to know lots about coffee when in fact.....they dont. Chefs fall into that group just as much as anyone else. They think that because they know lots about food, that it somehow includes coffee. Really? For the rest of it you cant blame suppliers wanting to plug their products and that includes jumping into bed with clients (in this case restaurants) that have a well know name. Its not their problem (the suppliers). With respect if you dont like the coffee OR THE WAY IT IS PRODUCED in a restaurant, it is the restaurant owners problem. Rgds, Attilio very first Crema site sponsor.

WotB

A lot of the top restaurants are owned by chefs. As pedantic as we are about produce, how come this doesn't translate to better coffee? Its basically ignorance. There is also an element of being time-poor thrown in for good measure. You've spent so much time preparing your home-grown heirloom vegetables, trying to keep food miles down, and doing such in a sustainable matter, that you really don't have the time to care about another item of produce, one that is seen to be taken care of by front-of-house staff anyway. There are a bunch of chefs that do take their coffee seriously, me included, but like the general public's perception of coffee, it will take considerable time and effort to bring more on board. There really is nothing worse than having a spectacular meal, where everything falls into place, only to be let down by lack of attention to the coffee. If an establishment is judged on the whiteness of their napkins, the shine on their polished cutlery, the spotlessness of their stemware, how come coffee doesn't rate a mention?